Thread: Outlaw Mastery

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  1. #1

    Outlaw Mastery

    I remember seeing a few threads last week about ask mr roboty saying Mastery being a better stat choice after you get 3/3 Fortune Strikes on your weapon. What ever came of that discussion?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Acaius View Post
    I remember seeing a few threads last week about ask mr roboty saying Mastery being a better stat choice after you get 3/3 Fortune Strikes on your weapon. What ever came of that discussion?
    I would be interested to read more about this as well, as all of a sudden Shadowcraft has started stating Crit is what I should stack ,rather than what it said a week ago when it stated Mastery.

  3. #3
    Shadowcraft is horribly out of date at this point, even the beta version. I would trust AskMrRobot more then Shadowcraft until Shadowscraft gets an update. Every Sim I've run recently have told me Mastery/Vers are almost dead on, then Haste then Crit in terms of Stat value. This may vary wildly depending on your gear and should be left to Sims of your toon

  4. #4
    i had ~6800 mastery @ 665 ilvl
    amr had mastery as top by far
    smc had mastery as lowest by far

    idk who i should trust. it doesnt really make sense to me that mastery would be that good with outlaw when ~%40 dmg comes from run though and <%10 comes from main gauche

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by e6600 View Post
    i had ~6800 mastery @ 665 ilvl
    amr had mastery as top by far
    smc had mastery as lowest by far

    idk who i should trust. it doesnt really make sense to me that mastery would be that good with outlaw when ~%40 dmg comes from run though and <%10 comes from main gauche
    I could be wrong on this, but I've always trusted SimC over everything else and it's worked for me thus far. Lol

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by e6600 View Post
    idk who i should trust. it doesnt really make sense to me that mastery would be that good with outlaw when ~%40 dmg comes from run though and <%10 comes from main gauche
    You're not getting just damage from main gauche, you're also getting free offhand attacks to have a chance to proc combat potency too.

    Also, directly comparing main gauche to run through doesn't really make sense. You have run through as a skill no matter what, you'd need to compare main gauche with the damage boost from other stats.
    Last edited by Valnar; 2016-10-23 at 06:37 AM.

  7. #7
    Simc has mastery as my worst stat at level 27 weapon 877 ilvl. AMR has it as by far my best.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanatu View Post
    Simc has mastery as my worst stat at level 27 weapon 877 ilvl. AMR has it as by far my best.
    AMR sims 200k dps for my character when i never do under 300k dps. theres obviously a lot wrong with AMR and i wouldn't trust it right now.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    I heard it's something to do when you get the 5% dps increase, but yeah no one elaborated further.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    I have two sets of gear - One for Sub and one for Outlaw. The Sub set is mastery heavy, so I switched into it a few days back to test the AMR-hypothesis.

    AMR is just flat out _wrong_ - Mastery is not our best stat, and is in most cases just a worse version of Haste, and Haste happens to be our best stat for AoE, and that is Outlaw's thing anyway, so for all intents and purposes, I stack as little mastery as possible.

    I got 3/3 Fortune's Strike + 2 Relics for it, and mastery and haste are still 6.99 and 6.95 respectively - No reason to get any mastery at all for me personally, and I'd imagine it's about the same for most other Outlaw rogues at that artifact level - Those with lower will only have mastery being even worse.

    Dunno what AMR is doing, but I hope they fix it.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Maybe @Zoopercat can share some info with us about the Mastery rise at AMR.

  12. #12
    just checked out serenity and method's outlaw rogues and alot of them are stacking mastery, several over 60% and vers is down at 3%
    is that just me? or are the armory wrong or something?

    myself have gone mastery for about a week now and i did see small increase in dps tough its still hard to determine cuz of RtB

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Efficiency View Post
    AMR sims 200k dps for my character when i never do under 300k dps. theres obviously a lot wrong with AMR and i wouldn't trust it right now.
    Maybe because the amr sims you're using is doing single target logic instead of aoe logic. Or are you talking about never doing under 300k in dungeons?

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroso View Post
    Maybe because the amr sims you're using is doing single target logic instead of aoe logic. Or are you talking about never doing under 300k in dungeons?
    To have only 200k dps on singletarget, you must be level 109 or something.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Parak View Post
    just checked out serenity and method's outlaw rogues and alot of them are stacking mastery, several over 60% and vers is down at 3%
    is that just me? or are the armory wrong or something?

    myself have gone mastery for about a week now and i did see small increase in dps tough its still hard to determine cuz of RtB
    I can't tell either, but my DPS has gone up since I regemmed, re-enchanted, and swapped some trinkets around.

    I think the thing that makes Mastery good are:

    • 3/3 combat potency traits
      more combo points from procs = more run through casts -- extra main gauche damage doesn't matter; but increasing the number of RT casts by 30-66% or more is huge

    The other thing I've done to boost DPS in outlaw is to aim for 6 combo points when possible by timing my pistol shot opportunity procs and my ghostly strike re-ups. It's a DPS boost. I average about 300k-330k dps overall for an entire mythic+, even with the higher mythics (+8, +9s). I have an ilvl of 866 with one of the survivability legendaries and a couple non-optimal relics.

    One thing is that high mastery does make it trickier to avoid wasting combo points. Mastery is also useless during lined up cooldowns since CoTDB will just waste main gauche procs anyway. Overall outlaw mastery isn't designed very well because our main cooldowns are almost certainly going to result in wasted CP and energy in some cases.

    I'm not sure at all if it's really better than the alternative, but it certainly doesn't gimp you. It also changes up your playstyle a bit. I don't think you'd want to stack mastery like assassins do.

    If more people have some more information to share about why mastery is or isn't good or how SimC is better than AMR, I'd love to hear it, since all I have are anecdotal experience, a couple different tools, and my own logs.

    Practically speaking it's also not that important to max out outlaw because assassination (and probably eventually subtlety) are just flat out better for most encounters and for higher end m+ content because of how the class fundamentally works. Maybe if they make it so MfD is not the 'only' correct talent to pick, but in the meantime Outlaw is going to be weaker on any fight that doesn't involve cycling through a lot of low health adds in AoE.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamercus View Post
    I can't tell either, but my DPS has gone up since I regemmed, re-enchanted, and swapped some trinkets around.

    I think the thing that makes Mastery good are:

    • 3/3 combat potency traits
      more combo points from procs = more run through casts -- extra main gauche damage doesn't matter; but increasing the number of RT casts by 30-66% or more is huge

    The other thing I've done to boost DPS in outlaw is to aim for 6 combo points when possible by timing my pistol shot opportunity procs and my ghostly strike re-ups. It's a DPS boost. I average about 300k-330k dps overall for an entire mythic+, even with the higher mythics (+8, +9s). I have an ilvl of 866 with one of the survivability legendaries and a couple non-optimal relics.

    One thing is that high mastery does make it trickier to avoid wasting combo points. Mastery is also useless during lined up cooldowns since CoTDB will just waste main gauche procs anyway. Overall outlaw mastery isn't designed very well because our main cooldowns are almost certainly going to result in wasted CP and energy in some cases.

    I'm not sure at all if it's really better than the alternative, but it certainly doesn't gimp you. It also changes up your playstyle a bit. I don't think you'd want to stack mastery like assassins do.

    If more people have some more information to share about why mastery is or isn't good or how SimC is better than AMR, I'd love to hear it, since all I have are anecdotal experience, a couple different tools, and my own logs.

    Practically speaking it's also not that important to max out outlaw because assassination (and probably eventually subtlety) are just flat out better for most encounters and for higher end m+ content because of how the class fundamentally works. Maybe if they make it so MfD is not the 'only' correct talent to pick, but in the meantime Outlaw is going to be weaker on any fight that doesn't involve cycling through a lot of low health adds in AoE.
    High Mastery doesn't provide you with any extra Combo points? Just Energy. I'm fairly certain Main Gauche can also proc from Run Through, Unless you have Buried Treasure and Adrenaline rush up at the same time I don't see energy capping as an issue. It speeds up your rotation for the times your Rolls are bad and have a single buff. I think DfA needs some changes to be a viable choice as well. Funny how they talk about changing Slice and Dice which will just end up being a DPS loss from losing Marked for Death anyways even if Slice and Dice was -as good- as Roll the Bones, why would you ever even lose a DPS cooldown to use it?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuuji View Post
    High Mastery doesn't provide you with any extra Combo points? Just Energy. I'm fairly certain Main Gauche can also proc from Run Through, Unless you have Buried Treasure and Adrenaline rush up at the same time I don't see energy capping as an issue. It speeds up your rotation for the times your Rolls are bad and have a single buff. I think DfA needs some changes to be a viable choice as well. Funny how they talk about changing Slice and Dice which will just end up being a DPS loss from losing Marked for Death anyways even if Slice and Dice was -as good- as Roll the Bones, why would you ever even lose a DPS cooldown to use it?
    Adrenaline + hero + especially if you have buried treasure up can lead to energy capping that's hard to avoid, but outside of hero it's not as big of a deal as missing combo points.

    You are totally correct about mastery not providing more combo points when it procs. For some reason I had fooled myself into thinking it was proccing extra double saber slashes, probably because I misinterpreted the tool tip. I think what was happening was just my increased energy resulted in more procs, but the mastery wasn't causing the Opportunity procs.

    DfA is just sort of a dumb idea because they spent a lot of time making a cool animation but don't know what to do to distinguish it from the other combo point finishers mechanically. So it just sits there as a noob trap forever.

    I dunno what Blizzard will do to 'fix' the spec. It seems like some players like the random aspect (I do, a lot) while others absolutely hate it. The people who hate it should just put some points into sin and play that instead. It'd be great if Blizzard pruned some of the useless talent choices and made it easier for us to either boost our single target or our AoE with talent choices. Maybe making cannon barrage less terrible, removing alacrity (it's boring but great in M+ and lame in raids because of the ramp-up time), and maybe getting a little creative elsewhere.

    But back on topic, I think the main thing that mastery provides is just more energy overall which means more damage. By comparison we don't really have much that procs off of crit. The class benefits the most from cycling through RT as much as possible, minimizing problems from bad rolls, and getting more cooldown casts. It also means that keeping Ghostly Strike up 100% of the time is less relatively costly than it would be.

  18. #18
    I reluctantly switched to Assassination AP spec recently and as a result, i am stacking mastery. I was messing around with Outlaw in a H ursoc pug and i ended up pulling 310k with average at best rolls in my mastery set up.

    My stats in Outlaw were roughly
    55% mastery
    37% crit
    12% haste
    7% vers

    Simcraft has Vers > Haste = Crit > Mastery for me right now.

    My point is stat weights shift all the time. I seem to be performing a lot better with this gear set as opposed when i was stacking vers/crit. I don't think sims are a reliable tool for this spec.

  19. #19
    I was checking up Serenity last night how their rogues are gearing up. If you check noxe (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Noxe/simple) most of his gear is mastery/haste. How come?

  20. #20
    Deleted
    He has only 1 gem and that is the agility one but check ring enchants they are for versatiltiy. Perhaps all his top items(that give more ilvl and agility ofc) are without versatility and crit. It's not that easy sometimes you use what you get as drop.

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