Illidan & Illidari Relationship's Nature.

[ravenmoon]

About Altruis, I think that since the story wasn't planned this far ahead back then, and bringing back Illidan wasn't a thing, Altruis was made simply to be this good guy who betrayed the evil Illidari Lord and you felt compelled to cooperate with him -- his story could have ended even back then and you won't even give it another thought. But with the current additions to the lore, I have this feeling that if (big IF) Altruis considered rejoining for whatever reason, he would be allowed back.

Agreed here. His inclusion is interesting - because turns out Illidan was doing the right thing, the problem Altruis has was that it was the wrong way... he follows Illidan to a point, but there is a line he won't cross - and he does so without being a traitor to the cause. The cause is still everything to Altruis, which is why you would still have him, it always was, and it continues to be - he just won't follow his boss into madness... which you have to say, Elves have shown a tendency to, look at Azshara, and Elisande, Kael'thas - the only one who didn't take too many with him was Fandral Staghelm.

There are the Dread druids who aren't been corrupted by the nightmare as far as I have noticed. Not sure who leads them or how they came to be. but you struggle to find wayward night elves, but when an outstanding one goes bad, he/she does bring a following, you'd want Altruis with you. However in Illidan's case, Illidan didn't actually go all bad, he needed to be stopped, but he wasn't all bad, Varedis, the one Kayn accuses Altruis of slaughtering and betraying, well he actually did go very bad, and Altruis spotted that and helped the TBC heroes take him out.

[Friendlyimmolation]

and he does so without being a traitor to the cause.

uh wrong, he gets other illidari killed.


They went insane after being killed, not before.

[ravenmoon]

I agree, and I think Illidan would be delighted at the return of Demon Hunters who struck out on their own to take the fight to the Legion, such as Loramus Thalipedes despite his current circumstances. The only Demon Hunter I've seen thus far receive his ire is Altruis, and that's no doubt due to his actions back in TBC. With the clarification of Illidan and the Illidari from TBC I know I began to look a bit askance at Altruis' actions, which is why I personally choose Kayn as my second when the choice came up. Kayn's a little too fawningly loyal to Illidan for my tastes but Altruis' actions now strike me as having been completely unnecessary.

which makes me wonder how Illidan would react to Altruis when he returns. I think he'll accept him back, but we'll see. He trusts your judgement, and Altruis was always faithful to the cause. Illidan has some reconciling with his people to come also - and I wonder if that will happen.

I've thought a lot about his reception. I reckon Thalyssra and the nightborne actually all Broken Isle night elves (nightborne, highborne, val'sharah druids) will welcome him back in his new capacity, and he has no beef with them, they didn't lock him away, and Suramar was his home city, he'd be delighted to be back there. Just speaking with him should reveal to Maiev/Jarod that they got it wrong about it him at the very start. They still think Illidan reignited the Well to draw the burning legion back because he was truly working for them. They didn't believe him because he killed guards who tried to stop him -- they didn't know what demon hunters go through, the struggle and how he lost control then - it really should be something profound

you see, their stigma to magic usage, the Well and arcane, has come from these events. The addiction that corrupted the Queen who drew the legion, the Well that drew them - night elves can be forgiven to think it's that, but they really are wrong about it - the Arcan'dor, Illlidan, Suramar returned preserved, These are significant for them.

the tainted view in which they'd been looking at Arcane usage should evaporate - now the full information comes to light. THe legion after Azeroth not the Well, the Well magic usage able to be masked, the arcane addiction imbalance cureable, Illidan never did betray, but was always working to destroy the LEgion, he reconstituted the Well for his people - man, this should make them fall in love with him. Funny 10k years he would have wanted nothing more, now, I wonder if it would even phase him, he'd probably look at them and smile or he'd be totally beaming, because this has always been about saving his people, and now to have them behind him not against him ...that's also a significant step for Illidan, then try to recruit more night elves to the Illidari, which the Wardens and the priests would not appreciate - baby steps Illidan. I also reckon that Illidan would get a seroius fanbase amongst the night elves and nightborne

With Thalyssra in charge, and the puffy airs gone with the recent troubles, the nightborne can actually take pride in their ancient heroes now. They can venerate the High Priestess for shepherding the Elves through 2 victories over the Legion and welcome her expertise in this one. THey'd ofc appreciate Malfurion the one who did the saving twice, and he might be a bit ashamed because it is because of him his people un-necessary put away the arcane, and the exile of the high elves. Not to mention he let his twin rot in a cell.. for all his goodness, his decisions also cost the northern kaldorei alot.

If Illidan is instrumental in the saving of the nightwell, -- which I suspect he will be.. Tyrande is the only person capable of cleansing it by calling on the goddess, but she at the moment thinks it needs to be destroyed. Only Malfurion or Illidan can talk her out of that - and he should be able to do that especially once he's been caught up to current affairs. The nightwell and the arcane is no longer a risk to the elves, and it's power is solely needed to use against the legion and not for it this time, besides destroying it might cause another Sundering - and the night elves need all the magical help they can get from the nightborne, nightwell as they clearly have not been able to hold their own, furthermore, he will need power on this sort of level in the fight against the Legion.

This is all suspicion I read on the beta forums, but it would be awesome to see.

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uh wrong, he gets other illidari killed.


They went insane after being killed, not before.

that is traitor to the corrupt illidari, not traitor to the cause. The cause is destroying the burning legion at all costs. He never deviates from his demon hunt and that goal.

[Friendlyimmolation]

that is traitor to the corrupt illidari, not traitor to the cause. The cause is destroying the burning legion at all costs. He never deviates from his demon hunt and that goal.

he helped in the chain of events that lead to the death of Illidan and the failing of the plan to destroy Argus, hes a fuckup,

[Aeluron Lightsong]

he helped in the chain of events that lead to the death of Illidan and the failing of the plan to destroy Argus, hes a fuckup,

Illidan is more of a fuck up and to the people of Shattrath Alliance and Horde, Illidan was the threat. Sure in the grand scheme Illidan's fall prevented a trip to Argus but nobody really knew Illidan's true intentions.

[Aucald]

which makes me wonder how Illidan would react to Altruis when he returns. I think he'll accept him back, but we'll see. He trusts your judgement, and Altruis was always faithful to the cause. Illidan has some reconciling with his people to come also - and I wonder if that will happen.

I've thought a lot about his reception. I reckon Thalyssra and the nightborne actually all Broken Isle night elves (nightborne, highborne, val'sharah druids) will welcome him back in his new capacity, and he has no beef with them, they didn't lock him away, and Suramar was his home city, he'd be delighted to be back there. Just speaking with him should reveal to Maiev/Jarod that they got it wrong about it him at the very start. They still think Illidan reignited the Well to draw the burning legion back because he was truly working for them. They didn't believe him because he killed guards who tried to stop him -- they didn't know what demon hunters go through, the struggle and how he lost control then - it really should be something profound

you see, their stigma to magic usage, the Well and arcane, has come from these events. The addiction that corrupted the Queen who drew the legion, the Well that drew them - night elves can be forgiven to think it's that, but they really are wrong about it - the Arcan'dor, Illlidan, Suramar returned preserved, These are significant for them.

the tainted view in which they'd been looking at Arcane usage should evaporate - now the full information comes to light. THe legion after Azeroth not the Well, the Well magic usage able to be masked, the arcane addiction imbalance cureable, Illidan never did betray, but was always working to destroy the LEgion, he reconstituted the Well for his people - man, this should make them fall in love with him. Funny 10k years he would have wanted nothing more, now, I wonder if it would even phase him, he'd probably look at them and smile or he'd be totally beaming, because this has always been about saving his people, and now to have them behind him not against him ...that's also a significant step for Illidan, then try to recruit more night elves to the Illidari, which the Wardens and the priests would not appreciate - baby steps Illidan. I also reckon that Illidan would get a seroius fanbase amongst the night elves and nightborne

With Thalyssra in charge, and the puffy airs gone with the recent troubles, the nightborne can actually take pride in their ancient heroes now. They can venerate the High Priestess for shepherding the Elves through 2 victories over the Legion and welcome her expertise in this one. THey'd ofc appreciate Malfurion the one who did the saving twice, and he might be a bit ashamed because it is because of him his people un-necessary put away the arcane, and the exile of the high elves. Not to mention he let his twin rot in a cell.. for all his goodness, his decisions also cost the northern kaldorei alot.

If Illidan is instrumental in the saving of the nightwell, -- which I suspect he will be.. Tyrande is the only person capable of cleansing it by calling on the goddess, but she at the moment thinks it needs to be destroyed. Only Malfurion or Illidan can talk her out of that - and he should be able to do that especially once he's been caught up to current affairs. The nightwell and the arcane is no longer a risk to the elves, and it's power is solely needed to use against the legion and not for it this time, besides destroying it might cause another Sundering - and the night elves need all the magical help they can get from the nightborne, nightwell as they clearly have not been able to hold their own, furthermore, he will need power on this sort of level in the fight against the Legion.

This is all suspicion I read on the beta forums, but it would be awesome to see.

I'm not sure I would share in confidence concerning the Night Elves' changing of views concerning the Arcane - 10,000 years is a *long* swath of time to have an entrenched view of a thing, and I don't think either Illidan's return or the Nightborne rebellion would do much to quell the current Kaldorei people's jaundiced view of the Arcane. I do agree, though; that the disparate Night Elven groups need to come together and find common cause. The Kaldorei, the Highborne remnant (Mordent Evanshade's people), and the Shal'dorei are greater together than they are apart. The same could be said for the entirety of Elven people, High and Blood Elves included, but the distance between the Kaldorei and the Sin'dorei strikes me as even greater than the distance between the Kaldorei and the Shal'dorei.

If the Illidari is taken as a fraternal order as opposed to a strictly military one, then Altruis' actions would take on a dimension not previously accounted for. After all, he was complicit in the deaths of 4 of his own brothers and sisters: Alandien, Theras, Netharel, and Varedis. He might be able to explain this away that it was only Varedis he wanted to destroy, Varedis being a traitor to the order in any case, and it was the Aldor or the Scryers who ordered the deaths of the other three. I would envision Illidan sparing him only if the PC chose him as their second - otherwise I'd think he'd be incinerated as a traitor to the Illidari and their mission.

[ravenmoon]

I'm not sure I would share in confidence concerning the Night Elves' changing of views concerning the Arcane - 10,000 years is a *long* swath of time to have an entrenched view of a thing, and I don't think either Illidan's return or the Nightborne rebellion would do much to quell the current Kaldorei people's jaundiced view of the Arcane. .

it is a long time, but this is what we're shown about the night elves. We are shown their views changed in WotLk 3.4, Wolfheart and Cata, - people keep forgetting that Maiev is OUTCAST for her anti-highborne, anti-magic views... the Darnassian night elves views have moved on, and players have perhaps missed the mark a little bit on them because of it.

The Night elves under Malfurion and Tyrande are shown to make some drastic massive changes, like lightning quickly when they discover it's the right thing or the best thing to do they wholesale change. THus was the original decision not to use magic, and it's repeal 10k years later. It may be a long time to us, but night elves didn't ponder on this for 10k years, they got on firmly believing their decision was saving the world and I would presume that helped stay their hands. Those who couldn't take it eventually caused a storm and got exiled. 7k years later, when they came out of isolation, and they see they're wrong about it, they change.

This shouldn't surprise you or I because night elves are supposed to be intelligent people, they should be able to see the right thing and act accordingly speedily. Maiev who doesn't share those views, is a very very small minority she stirs up and provokes into siding with her by poisioning their views, she is also exposed and shown to have been a bit over-consumed with her agenda, didn't twist her into an evil person, but she wasn't seeing clearly or reasonably and it was plain to all us readers in both Wolfheart and Illidan.

So off course the view will change. Even Tyrande who doesn't like fel at all, recognizes the need for demon hunters and explains to her husband it is necessary. Same Tyrande who is cold at first to Thalyssra, like she was to the alliance and horde at Hyjal in WC3, wanna bet she would warm up to her once she knows she can trust her? Ofc! That's her character. Tyrande also has the goddess speaking with her, so she always eventually gets to the right call by the end of the story,

Bottom line is the elves views are changing. The last point of contention remaining was the matter of addiction and the ramifications of that, and look at what the Arcan'dor just went and solved. It will take working with Thalyssra for a while to convince Tyrande that the arcane isn't the source to worry about, and addiction is gone - afterall, it's not lust for power or the arcane that forces Elisande down the legion route at all, but Tyrande may not know the details we are privvy too, she's just met Thalyssra, she'll soon find out, nightborne today are not the reckless dangerous fools Azshara's highborne were because of magic.

Once you see that, that's it.

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I do agree, though; that the disparate Night Elven groups need to come together and find common cause. The Kaldorei, the Highborne remnant (Mordent Evanshade's people), and the Shal'dorei are greater together than they are apart. The same could be said for the entirety of Elven people, High and Blood Elves included, but the distance between the Kaldorei and the Sin'dorei strikes me as even greater than the distance between the Kaldorei and the Shal'dorei.

Sadly that is true. I am in agreement with the end of your statment, and will add that the kaldorei and shaldorei are much closer or potentially closer to mutual acceptance than those who haven't diligently followed the lore might think currently, however there is still a gap that kaldorei and blood/high elf acceptance that even a return to arcane loving ways ways will not necessarily fix.

You see magic phobia would have been the main obstacle between shal'dorei/quel'dorei and kal'dorei during the vigil, but that went in Cata, as the reasons for it were less reasonable, the last area of potential wary or distrust would have been addiction which gets solved now, but even before that the kaldorei had started accepting the highborne back. When it boils down to it neither the Shen'dralar highborne nor the Suramar ones were actually summoning demons in the WotA, that was the Zin'Azshari ones, the night elves annoyance with the Shen'dralar was that they did nothing till much later on in the war - putting a question mark on their motivations, but they move past that anyway, they only annoyance Tyrande comes up with over the Shal'dorei is that they hid in the shield, much easier to overcome when you see what Thalyssra has been doing. The nightborne we save and persuade to our cause fight the legion - that's also in their favour. Tyrande would not accept Elisande, but she would ally with Thalyssra and does.

However, the beef between night elf and high/blood elf has extra baggage. The high/blood elf were Zin'Azshari highborne, altho Tyrande was fine with Darh'remar and his group, most night elves were not, they were the ones from the palace, and although they rebelled against the queen, they in particular had started this whole nightmare that time can heal, but change in magic perception doesn't really affecte it. The high/blood elf issue against the night elves was also independent of the other issues and groups, and specifically dealt with expulsion... it's not the fact that night elves didn't want to use magic then or refused to, it's that they exiled them and cut them off, - that they would do that, for such a foolish (in their eyes) reason - it has jsut filled them with contempt for Tyrande's group in particular rather than the rest of the night elves.

THey may not look kindly on the other highborne either, thinking of them as not much better seeing they were in the old ways the high elves moved on - the indulgent even criminal use of magic (the shen'dralar contd in) or that old restrictive stupid moon focused or Azshara (or insert any new replacement this ones suck up to) it's a bigger bridge to cross. The sad thing is that the night elf acceptance of the nightborne and highborne might aggravate that divide even further, especially if it ends up being an amicable one - they'd be like "oh so you rejected us because of magic usage and addiction, and you are accepting these even worse of junkies?! Hypocrites!" it wouldn't matter that the addiction has been cured and the situation different, the hurts and insults would fly.

[Aleksej89]

Sargeras wants to sacrifice the whole universe to fight the void lords.

Illidan wants to sacrifice anyone on azeroth to fight the burning legion.

Those two characters seem very similar in intent and purpose.

[Mehrunes]

that is traitor to the corrupt illidari, not traitor to the cause. The cause is destroying the burning legion at all costs. He never deviates from his demon hunt and that goal.

At all costs? He betrayed Illidan because he considered the cost of his methods to be too high. So he is very much deviating from the cause. I mean, you outright said yourself that he betrayed him because of disagreeing with his methods. You're being inconsistent. Besides, what corrupt Illidari? Varedis et al only joined the Legion after they realized they were betrayed by one of their own. Prior to that Kil'jaeden's torture proved futile. That "one of their own" was Altruis.

[Sorshen]

All female illidari are crazed goth fangirls.

[ravenmoon]

At all costs? He betrayed Illidan because he considered the cost of his methods to be too high. So he is very much deviating from the cause. I mean, you outright said yourself that he betrayed him because of disagreeing with his methods. You're being inconsistent. Besides, what corrupt Illidari? Varedis et al only joined the Legion after they realized they were betrayed by one of their own. Prior to that Kil'jaeden's torture proved futile. That "one of their own" was Altruis.

not being inconsistent, just clarifying what I meant. Illidan is the most dedicated to the cause of destroying the Burning Legion...that's the goal of the Illidari and the demon hunters, to destroy the demons, not to unquestioningly support everything Illidan does or says. He was not betryaing that objective when he sent us to kill Varedis and oppose the objectives that were destroying a lot of innocent lives - not once did he deviate from that original cause. He was considered a betrayal to Illidan to oppose his more extreme measures, but not a betrayal to the cause

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All female illidari are crazed goth fangirls.

what would you call forsaken females?