Unholy: 2% overall DPS buff for Single target only

[Bytch]

But hey, at least Dark Transformation is coming off the gcd.

[Kronik85]

Maybe it's just my shitty stats but AWS is about a 1.5% dps increase for me last time I simmed

61% mastery life is good. At least I'll get quite a bit out of the death coil buffs because of my dumb mastery amounts!

You've got alot more Mastery than me so maybe that plays a roll, BS from my simming certainly says it loves Mastery. I wouldn't say the difference between the talents is huge which has been the theme of our conversation so far, talent set ups for single target are certainly close and if like you said before you're just throwing caution to the wind and banking on a positive RNG swing then I'm sure BS is the way to go.

Myself, I prefer consistency and AWS is probably one of the only sources we have for that so I'm happy to spec into it for pure single target.

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But hey, at least Dark Transformation is coming off the gcd.

That's good news, a nice QoL change for sure.

[Pepehands]

But hey, at least Dark Transformation is coming off the gcd.

Where did you see that info?

[Deleted]

But hey, at least Dark Transformation is coming off the gcd.

Where are you seeing this? Would be great if it did, but I didn't see this change anywhere.

[Schizoide]

I uninstalled the PTR, but the datamines show it still on the GCD.

I don't see why they'd take it off anyway. You'd just macro it into every button to maximize uptime. Makes no sense.

[Deleted]

Meanwhile other classes like Fury gets a blanket 8% increase to damage, and affliction another shower of baseline damage to their core spells too.

At this rate even frost will surpass unholy, and unholy will truly be the laughing stock for 7.1

[Grimdeeds]

Regarding why some scale differently than others, it's not just as easy as giving higher AP% on spells.

For example, let's say that you have one spell and you have 100 AP. Now you just gained another 10 AP. It doesn't matter what scaling that spell has, you will still gain 10% damage, meaning you still scale at the same rate: At a 1:1 rate with your stats.

I don't know the answer for why Unholy specifically has poor scaling, but some things which can cause good or bad scaling includes:

Positive:
- Something which lets you use strong abilities more often as you get more gear (for example crits resetting or reducing cooldowns, or giving resources, or buffs/debuffs).
- Something which lets you keep higher uptime on buffs, or gain stacks on buffs faster
- Good mastery (which can in turn also increase the value of other secondary stats)

Negative:
- Abilities with cooldowns which does not scale with haste
- Abilities which are guaranteed crits and gain nothing from more crit
- Gaining more resources or reducing cooldowns causes some to get wasted from becoming resource or GDC capped.
- Bad mastery

So 1:1 neutral scaling would be if you only have one ability with no cooldown and which has no special interaction with crit or haste, and gain the same amount of damage from mastery. Then as we add various positive and negative factors to this, we change it's scaling ratio (or whatever it's called, not a native English speaker).

Examples of stuff which could improve Unholy scaling include:
- Make mastery more powerful, for example by adding more sources of shadow damage, such as pets, or increasing the power of existing sources of shadow damage (DC buff does this, although because DC is such a small percentage of the overall damage it doesn't have a big impact on scaling)
- Some way to keep buffs up longer, for example when wounds pop near a army ghoul they "feed" (or whatever) and are able to stay alive for longer. More gear would cause longer uptime both from haste and crit (with Castigator).

thank you for this post Tiyr, really appreciate it.

[Dangus]

"(Survival, both Frosts, Elemental, Outlaw, Affliction, Fury) were significantly buffed, but not Unholy"

shut the fuck up you actually dont know shit.

outlaw elemental and fury were NOT signifcantly buffed.

If you don't know, dont assume because you cannot do maths.

[Raiz]

Well I mean if we sit at the bottom we'll eventually get a buff. Just gotta wait 3-4 months before they've "Checked the logs" and "Heard player feedback" enough times to warrant another 2% buff

The sarcasm is strong on this one, I actually smiled. Was kinda tired of seeing the same rant, but this one ? It was so much spot on.

[Protean]

I uninstalled the PTR, but the datamines show it still on the GCD.

I don't see why they'd take it off anyway. You'd just macro it into every button to maximize uptime. Makes no sense.

I'm stuck with the shoulders, so I wouldn't mind if it came off the GCD. I'm fine with other people macroing it like sheep, still going to manually press it in my castsequence-macro or with the dedicated button depending on my situation.

Really, all it would do is give me an extra deathcoil. They should also take soul reaper off GCD. At least people who macro it are going to suffer occasionally.

[0verdose]

A) When there's a list there's always a bottom, not sure what you want here other than 'any spec but MY spec'.
B) Unholy is still very decent. Hell my unholy buddy just pugged HC xavius and was top deeps.
C) Stop looking at sims as the end all be all omg we're such shit list.

This aren't sims we're talking about. It's the logs. Why would they buff frost up so much if they eventually get better with gear and out perform unholy at the mythic level anyways? I did look at heroic EN logs and unholy is almost middle of the pack there. I guess since wow is more geared towards "casuals" now, that is the percentile and difficulty where they are basing their buffs/nerfs off of since that's where majority of the players are currently. This just isn't fair at all but there really nothing we can do about it. Time to reroll to a spec that is always strong and always gets attention from the devs. Fire mage here I come

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Earlier in one of the threads, someone had said the death coil buff would come out closer to a 5% overall gain. I don't know which, if either, is the correct figure, but it doesn't seem that it's going to be enough. They didn't appear to bring down the top outliers by very much, and with Unholy scaling being so far behind, my assumption is we'll be low to middle of the pack starting tomorrow and then in a few weeks close to the bottom. But would be great if the DK community had more theorycrafters around to help us out. I don't think we're getting through to blizzard at all despite the many threads on MMO-champion and on the official forums.

I think death coil was a good place to START with a buff for unholy. We need more single target sustained damage, but this is probably not enough. Death coil was already pretty weak, and I have 2 out of 3 on deadliest coil (my wep is lvl 29).

I have yet to fully understand why we, unholy, are scaling so badly in EN mythic. Is it because fights are primarily single target favored with short cleave/aoe only, and we only excel at sustained cleave/aoe? I've heard plenty of people talk about us scaling badly, and believe me I am seeing it for myself in my own raid, but I don't know what the cause is for Unholy. I've seen the graphs Tiyr linked for us showing the bad scaling, just confused on what's causing it.
@Skazord I agree with your conclusion, we're hurting and I don't see this buff being enough for either spec frost or unholy.

We will be dead last within a few weeks when we enough data from logs to see the difference. Every spec below us got significant buffs, including the braindead tier frost dk, which is now better than us in M EN, m+ and pvp. Blizz wants unholy to be shit tier. I think they realized that they fucked up the playstyle and scaling by making rng such a big factor and they are too lazy to fix the mess that they created. Instead they will just buff frost significantly and force everyone to reroll, so they don't have to bother even putting time into fixing unholy. Blizz cuts into too much of their mage, Hunter, rogue fix time by trying to make Unholy decent again.

[Rooskie1993]

Yeah probably. It only really effects frosts ST unless it's back to howling blast spam for aoe. Don't know if the machine gun build is still going to be the way to go. If frost is ahead of unholy by a large margin you can almost garuntee that hotfixes will come in to make it more in line with unholy. It really is only fair since unholy suffered because of frosts weak dps in the past. If they don't do anything more to unholy it is seriously a punch in the balls to any dk who invested full ap into apoc and nothing else.

Lucky me I invested 20 points into frost and have 29 points in unholy, I did this purely for PvP thought since I play frost in pvp and hypothermia is so good in pvp.

[Deleted]

Dc buff will be reverted 3 days after 7.1 hits.

[Deleted]

Still dont get these crying comments, in mythic plus, you have insane AOE with infected claw, on 4 targets you can be siting at 1 milion dps for 10-15 seconds, in mythic raids, yes it might be harder and you wont reach 600k dps as shadow priest, but I dont think if you do 300k plus, there will be many guilds that would turn you down, and there isnt a single boss in EN that would allow you to get atleast 300k dps. Maybe ppl have to start looking at their performance, and improving. Dk has a decent skillcap but at the end its not the worst.

And regarding the buff, well nothing major but it gave you atleast some reason to use it.

[Sygil]

Still dont get these crying comments, in mythic plus, you have insane AOE with infected claw, on 4 targets you can be siting at 1 milion dps for 10-15 seconds, in mythic raids, yes it might be harder and you wont reach 600k dps as shadow priest, but I dont think if you do 300k plus, there will be many guilds that would turn you down, and there isnt a single boss in EN that would allow you to get atleast 300k dps. Maybe ppl have to start looking at their performance, and improving. Dk has a decent skillcap but at the end its not the worst.

And regarding the buff, well nothing major but it gave you atleast some reason to use it.

If you don't get these crying comments then you just don't understand the class. When DKs parse at 95 percentile and are doing equal dps to a 70 percentile rogue, you know there is something wrong with the class and not the player.

[Deleted]

If you don't get these crying comments then you just don't understand the class. When DKs parse at 95 percentile and are doing equal dps to a 70 percentile rogue, you know there is something wrong with the class and not the player.

at the same time, DK is able to perform at decent level, its not likely you will be the very top DPS in the raid, but Iam quite sure if you play good enough you can carry your own weight and be valuable part of your team. I do understand your concerns about the class, and I would say I do understand the class, but at the same time ppl that do 200k dps, shouldnt look at class balance but at basics of their characters, once you are hiting skill cap of the class and you are still at very bottom, come back and we might have this discusion again.

[Deleted]

If you don't get these crying comments then you just don't understand the class. When DKs parse at 95 percentile and are doing equal dps to a 70 percentile rogue, you know there is something wrong with the class and not the player.

I understand that 90% of these comments comes from casuals - same people that:

1)They don't know how to configure thier TMW/WA(because they lack in knowledge of what to track).
2)Legion is based on Legendaries(just like every class). Having the bracers makes you go up to like top 5 DPS in ST and top 3 in AoE/Cleave.
3)They are careful with what they nerf/buff. Tier set is coming out in few months(set bonus which will change our rotation and interacts with DC), plus we have this artifact trait that grants us 15% DPS increase(which unlocks as the last thing). But what is worse than getting a buff? Getting the buff and it gets nerfed again.
4)Did I say casuals? The polution of the community?

BONUS:
Top 50 world first mythic Xavius kills consists of atleast 1 UH out of 70% kills. This means lots and lots of different classes and spec got benched before the DK.

YES, they still did bottom DPS during world first, but they provided the utility. The talk about ultility IS NOT VALID. Give the UH to a skilled player and see what happends.

Go just do a quick research, see from a different point of view(maybe UNDERSTAND the strength of your own class). Or cry me a river(that is what a 'gamer' is now a days).

Do you remember the warning you had when you created your class? That the class is for advanced players.

[Deleted]

I understand that 90% of these comments comes from casuals - same people that:

1)They don't know how to configure thier TMW/WA(because they lack in knowledge of what to track).
2)Legion is based on Legendaries(just like every class). Having the bracers makes you go up to like top 5 DPS in ST and top 3 in AoE/Cleave.
3)They are careful with what they nerf/buff. Tier set is coming out in few months(set bonus which will change our rotation and interacts with DC), plus we have this artifact trait that grants us 15% DPS increase(which unlocks as the last thing). But what is worse than getting a buff? Getting the buff and it gets nerfed again.
4)Did I say casuals? The polution of the community?

BONUS:
Top 50 world first mythic Xavius kills consists of atleast 1 UH out of 70% kills. This means lots and lots of different classes and spec got benched before the DK.

YES, they still did bottom DPS during world first, but they provided the utility. The talk about ultility IS NOT VALID. Give the UH to a skilled player and see what happends.

Go just do a quick research, see from a different point of view(maybe UNDERSTAND the strength of your own class). Or cry me a river(that is what a 'gamer' is now a days).

Do you remember the warning you had when you created your class? That the class is for advanced players.

Oh, it's you again. Alright, let's do this again, since you insist every time that everyone but you is a shit player.
My character profile, just for reference, since you opened up with "90% of these are made by casuals": http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kirin-tor/Skaz/

1) Unholy rotation consists largely of tracking 4 cooldowns and the disease to be most effective. There's numerous WA packs and TMWs around, even on the first page of this subforum, that track just these. Do you actually believe that the majority of people that care enough about this game and class to browse their class subforum outside of the game, wouldn't put in the effort to be at least playing correctly? Even most newbies around here, first thing they say when they come asking for tips is ask what UI/addons/WAs others are using to help them. Everyone and their mom realizes those are important, and I have no clue why you even brought it up.

2) If it is, it shouldn't. But in any case, even DKs with the legendaries can (and are) trash a majority of the time. If Blizzard wants to make certain legendaries mandatory, they have to give the players a way to chase a specific legendary, otherwise it's bullshit. Nerf the legendary in question, buff the class overall, it's not hard.

3) The tier set was calculated by some people to be around a 5-10% buff to our damage, at most, based on current sims for our class. Have you looked at other tiers yet, besides Unholy? I'll tell you to go have a look at tiers for specs such as Marksmanship, for example. You're gonna have a blast when you realize how shit our 4pc looks in comparison to their entire bonuses. The last golden trait on our artifact (Double Doom) isn't a 15% damage increase, not even close, if that's the one you're mentioning. If you mean the very last trait that unlocks at 34, that's 5%, not 15%, and everyone else gets it too, so no idea why you bring that up either, that's baseline for every artifact.

4) You mean yourself, surely.

BONUS: Yes, they had DKs, keyword, *HAD*. DKs have a frontloaded artifact with most good DPS traits within the first 20 points (about the max amount you could have during EN Mythic first week), and they don't get outscaled too hard until 865-870, which is where the problem first becomes very visible. Even then, some of the best DKs in the world already were getting stomped in the first week of Mythic, as you noted. None of those guilds will be running DKs for Trial of Valor.

What "utility" is this you talk of? What skills are there that you're talking of, that a skilled player could pull off that the majority of us wouldn't be able to? I'm really interested in this part. What exactly am I not using in my class, that other top DKs are? This one should be good. I'll be waiting for your answer on this one, but I'll spoil it for you:

The only utility that DK has in the entire raid, is on I'lgynoth with grips. That's it. Even then, Unholy is shit, because they can only grip one, since they gutted Gorefiend's Grasp from our talents. Blood is the one that has the good utility on that, Unholy is again mediocre. So the only fight where Unholy could stand out, they're again mediocre. Such great utility.

I did my research. I'm minmaxing my class. I do M+ every week. I do Heroic clears every week, followed by half a Mythic clear and progression on whatever boss we're on, since we're not done yet. I look at other DK's logs to see what they're doing different and how that would help. I talk to other DKs to get their opinion on talents, gameplay, cooldown usage, etc. The result is pretty visible, really.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...269740/latest/

I'm among the best players in the world on most fights, in the top100 a bunch of times (at the time of the parse), and I don't even have the bis legendary that increases DPS massively. Where are you? Who are you to say that everyone else in this thread is shit? Where are your logs?

Like me, there are many others, including in this thread, who see DK for the pile of shit it currently is. You, with your shitty attitude of "I know best, everyone else must be shit xd" simply don't get it and you're making it harder for us. You pass the impression that Unholy is somehow fine, when it's not, it's quite possibly a bottom 3 spec right now, on a raid with very very little movement, where we should be shining and we aren't. You are the problem. Stop making shitty posts telling people they suck, when you don't have the first clue of what you're talking about.

Also: No, there isn't a warning telling the player the class is for advanced players. Never was. And it isn't.

[Deleted]

@Skazord Why do you still argue with this idiot ? It seems pretty obvious that he is a troll or to a higher extend probably got some mental issue Just don't mind talking with him. He won't get any point he's so focused on his statements..

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Do you remember the warning you had when you created your class? That the class is for advanced players.

Hilarious.

[Cosmic Janitor]

It's definitely noticeable that with rising gear levels it becomes harder and harder to stay in the upper brackets of the charts, which mostly happens with heavy use of resources and luck by now. It doesn't exactly help that unholy seems to be balanced around the bracers for the most part or at least the tier set. Not only dps wise but also playstyle wise (AwS is just the most boring ass talent ever in my opinion..), at least if you want to be competitive. Having to depend on hotfixes for scaling is also getting old by now.. I'd rather have it done via my equipment .