Hamburg teenagers walk free after gang-rape conviction

[Nadiru]

People on the internet tend to view concepts as isolated things. I've explained how the justice system works and people only think about that. They don't think about a youth system, social workers, family courts and all the other things the state has to oversee such situations and help families, or rather the youth. It's not the courts job to raise children or teach them lessons. That's not their job. Their job is to see that justice is done in a manner that doesn't completely and instantly ruins those kids for the rest of their lives, because unless we kill them on the spot, society has to deal with them one way or another for probably 50-60 more years.

Okay, except what if the family isn't actually rehabilitating these kids? Assuming rehabilitation is the goal and the family is negligent in telling their children not to shtupp 14 year olds, whose job is it?

[Slant]

Okay, except what if the family isn't actually rehabilitating these kids? Assuming rehabilitation is the goal and the family is negligent in telling their children not to shtupp 14 year olds, whose job is it?

Normally, the youth service will take them out of the family and put them in foster homes or perhaps orphanages in an attempt to provide a regular environment, as regular as being in a foster home can be, that is. The problem is that these kids have to grow up somewhere. If the family can't take care of them, they're already pretty much fucked. Giving up on them and locking them up for life for being born into a shitty family doesn't gel with humanitarian values we have.

More often than not, however, kids like these will get rehabilitated one way or another. Not all families are shite. And not every kid is born a rapist. Sometimes, kids do these things out of boredom. That doesn't make it better for the victim, of course, but it means that they can be brought back to society and learn that laws apply to them as well. This is one of the main reasons, crimologists reckon why kids are doing crimes. Because they keep telling each other that the law can't touch them. The task of the youth courts is to remind them that yes, the law can touch them.

However, it's generally known that youth prisons are the worst of all bad options to put kids into. It's almost a guaranteed criminal career they develop in such environments where teenagers, who already tend to be more volatile due to being teenagers, create a violent atmosphere of eat or be eaten jungle vibe. The kids that leave those prisons? Not a high success chance of them ever calming down, because all they know is violence.

[Nadiru]

Normally, the youth service will take them out of the family and put them in foster homes or perhaps orphanages in an attempt to provide a regular environment, as regular as being in a foster home can be, that is. The problem is that these kids have to grow up somewhere. If the family can't take care of them, they're already pretty much fucked. Giving up on them and locking them up for life for being born into a shitty family doesn't gel with humanitarian values we have.

More often than not, however, kids like these will get rehabilitated one way or another. Not all families are shite. And not every kid is born a rapist. Sometimes, kids do these things out of boredom. That doesn't make it better for the victim, of course, but it means that they can be brought back to society and learn that laws apply to them as well. This is one of the main reasons, crimologists reckon why kids are doing crimes. Because they keep telling each other that the law can't touch them. The task of the youth courts is to remind them that yes, the law can touch them.

However, it's generally known that youth prisons are the worst of all bad options to put kids into. It's almost a guaranteed criminal career they develop in such environments where teenagers, who already tend to be more volatile due to being teenagers, create a violent atmosphere of eat or be eaten jungle vibe. The kids that leave those prisons? Not a high success chance of them ever calming down, because all they know is violence.

"Sometimes, kids commit gang-rape out of boredom." Hell of a defense, Slant. Hell of a defense. I'm not sure I'd want to let people who might rape someone because there wasn't anything good on Netflix roam the streets, personally. And certainly if the law is supposed to be depicted as affecting teens, I'd expect a harsher penalty than 4 years of jailtime for the one adult in the group, and suspended sentences for the teens. That isn't affecting teens, that's literally the opposite of that. Don't you people have community service or something? If you really wanted teens to understand that the law can fuck with you, having them pick trash every weekend for the next three years might've been a solid reminder.

[Slant]

"Sometimes, kids commit gang-rape out of boredom." Hell of a defense, Slant. Hell of a defense. I'm not sure I'd want to let people who might rape someone because there wasn't anything good on Netflix roam the streets, personally. And certainly if the law is supposed to be depicted as affecting teens, I'd expect a harsher penalty than 4 years of jailtime for the one adult in the group, and suspended sentences for the teens. That isn't affecting teens, that's literally the opposite of that. Don't you people have community service or something? If you really wanted teens to understand that the law can fuck with you, having them pick trash every weekend for the next three years might've been a solid reminder.

It's not a defense, they don't get a lesser punishment because they did it out of boredom. But it's an explanation. Whether or not you like it doesn't even matter. Kids do crimes out of boredom, as a dare or because they feel like doing it at the moment. It's never a defense, but it helps to analyse why these things happen. Unless, of course, you want to tell me they're born rapists and there's nothing anyone can ever do about changing that. We might as well indeed shoot them if that was the case. It smells like a grand capitulation, though.

Not even sure if we do have something like community service. I'd imagine we do on some level, because it's a smart idea. Alas, we do not have the community system of the US where one would need to pick up trash. We have state departments doing that. We have basically every public need covered and no need for delinquents to fill up the ranks.

You seem to approach the subject from the punishment side of things. Asking for revenge, rather than asking how to change the mind of these youths. The judge explicitely said they showed remorse in court. This isn't some cheap stunt you can pull in front of a grand jury in the US. This isn't play acting. These judges, I know some of them, know their customer. They've done shit like this for decades. When they say it's actual remorse, it probably is. Don't underestimate the effect a court has on a 16 year old. Where a dude older than his own father is perhaps the first person in that kid's life telling him just how much he fucked up. And having the power to put him behind bars, too. You'd have to be the spawn of Don Corleone and Hitler himself to ignore that kind of pressure and not crack. Even if it's just inside.

[Nitro Fun]

It's not a defense, they don't get a lesser punishment because they did it out of boredom. But it's an explanation. Whether or not you like it doesn't even matter. Kids do crimes out of boredom, as a dare or because they feel like doing it at the moment. It's never a defense, but it helps to analyse why these things happen. Unless, of course, you want to tell me they're born rapists and there's nothing anyone can ever do about changing that. We might as well indeed shoot them if that was the case. It smells like a grand catipulation, though.

If some people gang rape a girl because they are bored then the only appropriate penalty is death by firing squad.

[Slant]

If some people gang rape a girl because they are bored then the only appropriate penalty is death by firing squad.

That's a good strategy to decrease population. Other than that, though, it won't affect anything else positively. It won't help the victim, or the victim's family. Or society. In fact, many argue it'd be a dangerous move, as the standard procedure after raping a girl would be to kill her, to remove a potential witness. Good thinking there, buddy.

[Nitro Fun]

That's a good strategy to decrease population. Other than that, though, it won't affect anything else positively. It won't help the victim, or the victim's family. Or society. In fact, many argue it'd be a dangerous move, as the standard procedure after raping a girl would be to kill her, to remove a potential witness. Good thinking there, buddy.

Then extend the penalty to execute their families too when caught if they do that, for raising such an imbecil.

[Hyve]

Why not just hang them like the scumbags they are?

No-one in their right gang-rapes a kid and leaves them to die a slow, humiliating death in the cold. This was Rape, Child Abuse & Attempted Murder. How on earth did they get off? Chances are though someone else will catch up to them soon enough ... You can't have a society where the justice system doesn't serve justice. It devalues the faith people have in their justice system, and so people will start to deal with their own matters.

[Slant]

Then extend the penalty to execute their families too when caught if they do that, for raising such an imbecil.

Oh okay, that totally sounds like you thought this through. Should kill their teachers, too, for obvious reasons. For not doing their job at overseeing the proper education and guarding children's thoughts like they're supposed to. Right?

[Nitro Fun]

Oh okay, that totally sounds like you thought this through. Should kill their teachers, too, for obvious reasons. For not doing their job at overseeing the proper education and guarding children's thoughts like they're supposed to. Right?

Criminals are criminals because their parents failed at raising them. If I had even thought about raping a girl and my father found out he would've beaten me so bad that I'd be in hospital for months, if I'd even survive.

If I had done it, he'd probably kill me himself.

[Deleted]

Rehabilitation isn't working in many places. You can only rehabilitate people who want to change, most criminals don't want to change.

Well said, and so true.

[Nadiru]

You seem to approach the subject from the punishment side of things. Asking for revenge, rather than asking how to change the mind of these youths. The judge explicitely said they showed remorse in court. This isn't some cheap stunt you can pull in front of a grand jury in the US. This isn't play acting. These judges, I know some of them, know their customer. They've done shit like this for decades. When they say it's actual remorse, it probably is. Don't underestimate the effect a court has on a 16 year old. Where a dude older than his own father is perhaps the first person in that kid's life telling him just how much he fucked up. And having the power to put him behind bars, too. You'd have to be the spawn of Don Corleone and Hitler himself to ignore that kind of pressure and not crack. Even if it's just inside.

Don't conflate a desire to see laws enforced with a desire to see punishment. I'm gonna make some radical assumptions and assume that we agree that rape is a class of criminal behavior which warrants legal proceedings. Well, the flip side of that is, without enforcement, the law is essentially toothless. And what you're arguing is that the proceedings are what's enforced in this situation, in lieu of actual legal penalties. Those kids are "being read the riot act," as it were. My argument is simply that I don't think this alone is sufficient. There needs to be some longer-term penalty in play here, or else what you're doing is paying lawyers and judges to pretend to be lawyers and judges for the sake of the children. That isn't justice being meted out, it's a farce. If you folk haven't got a community service system, you might think to develop one specifically for teenage delinquents.

[Tackhisis]

Ok, we could introduce a new law system specifically for foreigners, gypsies and other undesirables. Is that what you suggest?

A very good idea actually. The punishment must be proportionate to social danger of the crime. There can be no arguing that some social and ethnic groups are more dangerous.

[Miyagie]

Ok, we could introduce a new law system specifically for foreigners, gypsies and other undesirables. Is that what you suggest?

Iam sorry that i dont know any german with that count of charges and rarly hear of that in the news but alot immigrants dont give a shit about the german law.
Oh and since germans do also alot of crimes, i would suggest that all get punished way harder.