Fury better than arms after the 8% dmg increase?

[Bigbazz]

we are still talking about warrior here, right?

he wanted a data related response, I delivered. Feel free to do better.

This is data - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10

What you gave was results from a simulation model that is subject to human error and bias, has been proven to not closely match real data on multiple occasions recently, with a large error %... Using flawed simulation estimations is not "data".

As far as warrior comparisons go, it really isn't.

Erm yes it is, it has Arms doing things that are not possible in game regarding haste. It still has flawed trinket modelling for a few trinkets.. And when it comes to overall comparisons the front page sims have stupid profiles + super long sexy execute phases that inflate numbers.

[lordzed83]

Its better you know why ?? Because its actually more fun to play then fakin arms thats why

[Rhory]

This is data - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10

What you gave was results from a simulation model that is subject to human error and bias, has been proven to not closely match real data on multiple occasions recently, with a large error %... Using flawed simulation estimations is not "data".

I can work with that. Let's just wait then how the logs turn out once 7.1 has been released for a couple of weeks.

I'm not complaining that much anyway, I have fun playing arms and my progression days are long gone.

[Tehterokkar]

lol using simcraft for class comparisons in Legion, simcraft is so wrong it's hilarious. You know it was showing Fury as top tier before buffs. Before raids launched it had MM hunter super low and all the MM hunters were crying so hard, openly and publicy even players in high end guilds. Then raids launched and they were the number 1 class in the raid. So accurate, love how an ilvl865 Feral druid is apparently only doing 280k dps, not so long ago it had them doing 410k dps at ilvl 840.

Those profiles though!

Only people who cried were people who just saw a picture of the sim rankings and didn't know the profile. MM Profile was severely gimped because it had 19 traits, not 20. At 20 traits it gains 6-7% ST increase. And even still, MM is pretty mediocre at pure ST DPS. It rockets ahead when multiple targets are present in a typical raid scenario, where add spawns are not appearing in clumps, rather spread out(Eg. Cenarius Wisps on Mythic).

And in regards to Feral, the Druid profiles are bugged.

All in all, Simc profiles are not realistic to look at, some classes, for example Arms/Feral had BiS relics, which severely inflated their DPS as that is not realistic. Along with having perfect gear.

[Deix-EU]

lol using simcraft for class comparisons in Legion, simcraft is so wrong it's hilarious. You know it was showing Fury as top tier before buffs. Before raids launched it had MM hunter super low and all the MM hunters were crying so hard, openly and publicy even players in high end guilds. Then raids launched and they were the number 1 class in the raid. So accurate, love how an ilvl865 Feral druid is apparently only doing 280k dps, not so long ago it had them doing 410k dps at ilvl 840.

Those profiles though!

Profiles are good. Optimization gear through it is the best.
Sims are sims, raids are "environment that benefits this class or this class" but sims become suddenly true when you look at boss damage on raid parses and this is what matters the most in general.

[Suntall]

In short to the original post. No, even with this buff its not, number wise. The only right way to compare this is, is once there is actual raiddata and logs coming in.

Completely apart from Sims, and given the knowledge that the legendarys give Arms the upper hand it has always been the case that Arms performs better then Fury on lower gearlevels. The gap might well be smaller further into the expansion.

[Deleted]

No, it will never be better than arms until they do an actual rework of abilities(and likely legendaries). Band-aid buffs like this won't do anything.

Oh bois i really do not understand the problems you got with this spec. Yesterday i could pull 277K DPS (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...Gp83f#fight=19) on Dragons normal with ILVL 854, 24% Haste and no legendary before the 8% buffs went live. For me the spec feels fluid and joyful to play, no idea what kind of ability rework you want to have here. I also have no problems to keep up Juggernaught as long as i can stay on boss (what works most of the times). The only thing thats a real dick in the ass is the +30/20% damage taken during enrage, but they already improved here as we all know.

Legendaries might need some love, this i admit.

[Deleted]

US log since 7.1 :


warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#class=Warrior&region=1&search=ilvl.800.900%7Cdate.1477346400000.1477519200000


So I will not be too categorical to say that arm is way ahead fury (without Arm OP legendary ofc)


Fury definitly can compete after the buff imo - and keep in mind its not unidimensional and RNG as arm is.


I know on EN Single target is a must for progression - but who know on Nightold ? Fury can really be the go to spec cause its very close to arm on ST + less relient to RnG - and can do evrything other than ST better than arm / exept "sustain perma double target" maybe , which problably never happens. (since we never use SS on this progress , even on fight like Ursoc for exemple)


I'm actually Maining Arm put i put a piece on fury for the next progress.

But since the fury legendary are not that good i'll stay Arm for loot spec untill i get at least Gloves.


Now i'm just really curious to see which of these spec will scale better with Nightold gear + the impact of Set / Raid Trinket on both.

[Rashi]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mary&source=14

Gonna Put this here. This guy seems to do insane dps. 1 leg(ring)
Pretty sure after seeing this i´ll go Fury too
I think a fight with 1 add and full mythic gear will outscale arms.
Just take a look at the items from nighthold. Crit/haste on everything.
I know crit is shit for fury tho, but still

[Deleted]

Feel free to provide any data related response. Fury just doesn't scale as hard as arms, as well as being mechanically flawed(more so than arms), on top of legendaries skyrocketing Arms ahead.

I like all the data you supplied. Where does arms scale? With what? The only truely benifitial stat is mastery. While we have haste and mastery. Our mastery does the same thing as theirs just we need to proc it via abilities. They need to pray to RNG for their procs. We just need enaugh haste so we can stack up for rampage faster.

This is no band aid. This is just precautions. When gear starts giving higher stats fury could just jump up on the list. Any buffs that we get might make us brokenly overpowered in PvE in future patchas, hence the tip toe walk around the buffs.

[Bigbazz]

I like all the data you supplied. Where does arms scale? With what? The only truely benifitial stat is mastery. While we have haste and mastery. Our mastery does the same thing as theirs just we need to proc it via abilities. They need to pray to RNG for their procs. We just need enaugh haste so we can stack up for rampage faster.

This is no band aid. This is just precautions. When gear starts giving higher stats fury could just jump up on the list. Any buffs that we get might make us brokenly overpowered in PvE in future patchas, hence the tip toe walk around the buffs.

Arms scales hard with rage, sort of double dipping with Anger Management, Precise Strikes and the interaction with Tactition procs. This is relevant when we get more access to high ilvl gear with haste + the set bonus increasing the duration on battle cry, which again with deadly calm means more rage pooling during battle cry for more tactition procs and better anger management synergy outside of BC.

Arms will scale quite well for quite some time. Fury doesn't have that synergy and is also hurt more by shorter execute phases since Arms can go full balls to the wall from the first Execute while Fury stacks jugger. I guess Fury does have rage synergy regarding enrage, but it isn't pumping that rage into more and more damage like Arms does.

If you look at the MS gloves, it turns Arms into a rage churning monster and it's very smooth/competitive at that point, so we already see the effects of Arms getting more rage to pump into damage/tactition/anger management.

[zimi]

I'm a Data Scientist so I'm going to speak from my professional experience.

There is some confusion in this post regarding models, warcraft logs, etc.

The first thing to know is that when trying to analyze what spec is better the only reliable source of information in warcraft logs. And it's NOT 100% reliable. Warcraft logs shows the best X% of the combats. So its the most accurate information we can get. After a week of the patch we normally have gathered inough information to come to a clean conclusion. If Arms is doing 332k and fury is doing 317k that means that are initial position should be that arms is around 4-5% better than fury.

Now what we are trying to to here is not look to past data to tell whats better, but TO PREDICT whast GOING to be better after todays patch. And there is 2 ways you can do this: a) build a model. But models are difficult and while they might be helpful if you cant do better they are not the best thing (in wow or anything else). b) Analyze data a derive from it future conclusions. So this means looking at what is the CURRENT situation, then look at what the changes are going to BE, and try to derive the most likely outcome. Sometimes this is difficult other its easy.

In this case we know the Current situation: 332k for arms and 317k for fury (80th warcraft log for 1 week in mythic as the moment im writting). And we know the changes perfectly:
a) 8% buff to all the fury damage (Im I wrong?)
b) really small change for arms, they will have SLIGHTLY more tacticians so lets say 1% increase (this I dont know but I think 1-2% is fine assumption).

Now lets do the math:
a) Fury: 317*(1+0.08)=342K
b) Arms: 332*(1+0.015)=337K

So we can actually expect Fury to be OVER arms. How ever the difference is going to be MINIMAL, a 0,2% thats super small.
This has to be confirmed by the data next week. BUT and remember this BUT we need take into account possible biasses of the data. So if people start rerolling arms to fury, this will mean that fury players are a)less experiences, b) will have less artifat progression, c) might have less legendaries, d) might not have the optimal equipment. So this means that next week when you see the data keep in mind that you need to "push up" fury a little bit:

a) Logs show arms slightly above? That means that they are equal.
b) Logs show that they are equal? That means that fury is slightly above.
c) Logs show that fury is slightly above? Fury is stronger.

So with this information there is inmy opinion only one thing to do: If you are arms and you have a lot of artifact progression and optimal equipment DONT REROLL! You will loose dps. If you are arms and dont have a lot of artifact progression or you have more or less the same in both, then consider rerolling if you want. If you are fury and have progression as fury, stay fury and be happy .

[Bigbazz]

Hamstring change does nothing to tactition, we only used Hamstring for absolutely tiny dps (less than 1%) increase during Battle Cry, something we can no longer actually do because it was added to the GCD.

Inspiring Presence now affects party and raid members only.
Hamstring is now on the global cooldown, and can once again trigger Tactician.
Bladestorm damage increased by 8% for all specs.
Fury
Raging Blow damage increased by 8%.
Rampage damage increased by 8%.
Execute damage increased by 8%.
Bloodthirst damage increased by 8%.
Odyn’s Fury damage increased by 8%.
Furious Slash damage increased by 8%.
Dragon Roar damage increased by 8%.
Ravager damage increased by 8%.
Enrage now increases damage taken by 20% (was 30%).
Warpaint now modifies the Enrage damage taken increase to 15%.

Fury got about a 5% damage buff, most abilities increased by 8% but a massive portion of Fury damage is melee autoattack to begin with, I haven't run the exact numbers because I don't play Fury but I think Archi did and came up with around about 5%, don't quote me on the exact.

[zimi]

Anyway, the difference is 5%. Arms 0 buff. Fury lets say 5% buff. That still means they will be very close.

Im not a warrior player, I was just in the forum because im considering leveling up one and I saw this threat so im sorry if i said something wrong.

But to me its looks pretty clear that they will both be VERY close. I think the mele damage% is like 20% so that will mean its a 6.4% buff. But loot now in what terms we are talking, 1% up or down. That for me means that we can sassume that Fury=Arms. So play what you like or what you have better Items/artifact.

[Deleted]

Arms scales hard with rage, sort of double dipping with Anger Management, Precise Strikes and the interaction with Tactition procs. This is relevant when we get more access to high ilvl gear with haste + the set bonus increasing the duration on battle cry, which again with deadly calm means more rage pooling during battle cry for more tactition procs and better anger management synergy outside of BC.

Arms will scale quite well for quite some time. Fury doesn't have that synergy and is also hurt more by shorter execute phases since Arms can go full balls to the wall from the first Execute while Fury stacks jugger. I guess Fury does have rage synergy regarding enrage, but it isn't pumping that rage into more and more damage like Arms does.

If you look at the MS gloves, it turns Arms into a rage churning monster and it's very smooth/competitive at that point, so we already see the effects of Arms getting more rage to pump into damage/tactition/anger management.

So more rage means more CS debuffs? You mean just like more Rage means more rampages, more autos and more time spent enraged. Your hands maybe give you more rage but the ring gives us free executes witch give free rampages.
Consider that when nighthold hits we will have access to the trinket that, on proc, lowers major cooldowns by 5 seconds. Given how the furry warriors in beta had 75% uptime on BC with that. Sure arms can get it too but Arms proc rate will be sevearly lower due to our haste and number of whites coming in. The sheer amount of crits we will be getting in.

The current situation is Frost mage/Fire mage from WoD with arms taking the roll of Frost. You will take a dump on the other spec until we hit higher ilvls. Plus they said this is not the last of the buffs. By nighthold Fury will overtake arms. Doesn't mean Arms will not be viable.

[Bigbazz]

So more rage means more CS debuffs? You mean just like more Rage means more rampages, more autos and more time spent enraged. Your hands maybe give you more rage but the ring gives us free executes witch give free rampages.
Consider that when nighthold hits we will have access to the trinket that, on proc, lowers major cooldowns by 5 seconds. Given how the furry warriors in beta had 75% uptime on BC with that. Sure arms can get it too but Arms proc rate will be sevearly lower due to our haste and number of whites coming in. The sheer amount of crits we will be getting in.

The current situation is Frost mage/Fire mage from WoD with arms taking the roll of Frost. You will take a dump on the other spec until we hit higher ilvls. Plus they said this is not the last of the buffs. By nighthold Fury will overtake arms. Doesn't mean Arms will not be viable.

You missed my point entirely, Fury doesn't have multiple mechanics that all double down on synergy through rage throughput. Shattered Defense is much stronger as a buff than Enrage. Fury spends rage = more Enrage uptime/Autoattack dps, but it's already a high uptime buff and it's doesn't go deeper, SD is something that gives massive damage once, but if you can increase the procs you increase the damage output massively, not the case with Enrage.

Arms has 3 things that all synergise heavily together and have huge scaling potential as a result.

1. Tactition (Shattered Defense + Precise Strikes)
2. Anger Management
3. Deadly Calm

When you get more rage for Tactition procs you spend less rage due to precise strikes, leaving you more rage for Focused Rage meaning you now have higher stacked Mortal Strikes going out, in addition to more Tactition procs from the rage you saved. While PS is reducing the rage cost on those MS/Executes you're still benefitting from tactition as if they were full cost.

Meanwhile all this rage you're churning out while not in BC is contributing to Anger Management, causing you to reset BC faster, meaning you have more high damage burst windows and you're generating more rage (since all Autos in BC crit and abilities are all free).. So Arms has a really strong circular synergy with generating and spending rage, one that keeps giving more while Fury has a fairly static one because Rampage for pure damage use is not that strong, it's primary function is maintaining Enrage.

If Fury golden trait procs were more reliable at proccing then it would have better scaling through higher Rampage use, but the goldens are as rare as a total eclipse.

[Rastlin]

Just wanted to point out that secondary stats are inflated right now, and further down the expansion, only primaries will be buffed with higher ilvl, so all the discussion about scaling etc. is kind of pointless .

[Roiids]

I have my doubts withing Simcraft that they can properly account for the 4 piece of fury as well and how that works out overall.

[sdove05]

The fundamentals of Fury are not where they should be, and until they are fixed the synergy and flow of the spec won't allow it to perform as well as Arms.

This confuses me... I have played both, and fury is the only spec with any "synergy" it feels fluid like music. Arms is like monkey fucking a football.
I mostly do mythic +'s this xpac, and Kara last night which was awesome btw, and I honestly haven't & wont get out dps's by a equally geared Arms. I'm currently at 866 with the Legendary ring.

Avg- on most fight ~310K dps ST, much higher with adds

Eros - altar of storms

[Roiids]

This confuses me... I have played both, and fury is the only spec with any "synergy" it feels fluid like music. Arms is like monkey fucking a football.
I mostly do mythic +'s this xpac, and Kara last night which was awesome btw, and I honestly haven't & wont get out dps's by a equally geared Arms. I'm currently at 866 with the Legendary ring.

Avg- on most fight ~310K dps ST, much higher with adds

Eros - altar of storms

Ppl also forget that if you hate playing a spec you'll most likely do less dps than one you love.