Blood - Ignore Versatility?

[dizmog]

So, I'm gearing up for a tanking set and I'm watching a few Twitch streams of some high M+ blood DK's and I started to notice that a lot of them ignore versatility completely. Here are a couple examples:

us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Thunderhorn/Genera/advanced
us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Six/simple

Meanwhile, the main tank in my guild is stacking Verstatility and Icy Veins suggests it right below Haste as our most important stat. What am I missing here?

At a certain crit level, does your parry chance outperform any type of passive damage reduction you'd get from Vers?

[Neudgae]

most dks i know, or tank mains in general(such as sco from method) say haste>crit>all else is garbage for blood

the chance = to crit % to reduce damage by an extra 8% is really good considering we have shit for DR,LOL 16% on a shit charge system what a joke, plus in mythic+ damage reduction is shit you want to kill things to clear faster because you always have garbage mobility

[Baddok21]

When your tanking 10-15+ with certain affixes and trying to get 2-3 chests

the DK is not built to actually face tank any of it, almost no reasonable amount of versatility is going to get you to a point where you can face tank any of it. so keep gearing for maximum ranged threat and and AoE DPS.

though personally i have gone the Haste (20-25%) > Versatility > Crit route and enjoy it more as having 35% versatility (Arcway 2 set + Goblet) is extremely noticeable for dmg and mitigation. But i totally understand the merits of foregoing that entirely and basicly just being a blood boil Kiter because regardless of my versatility that is basicly all im doing with certain affixes, that reality is simply unavoidable as a DK.

though now that we have IBF back, I have been speccing for Rune tap again and the combined DRs + Versaility makes us ALOT more sturdy then we were 4 days ago.

[thebouta]

I've been play blood mostly as my OS but it actualy has beter gear then my unholy gear and also have 24 points in both weps buts neither here or there, my point is i have 30% haste and 28% mastery 25% crit and no vers.

I don't think vers is bad but it's just so hard to get a shit ton of that i would say leave it. I have however been asked to start tanking mythic EN and now i'm kinda leaning towards the haste vers thing but not sure.

I do some pretty insane pulls on 10+ but i guess dk's have a great tool set in that regard, i'm worried that i might be geared wrong for mythic raids and taking to much damage and putting strain on our healers.

you guys think i should start working on my vers?

[Snuffleupagus]

My current understanding is to gear for:

Haste: 30% or higher
Crit: Whatever you can get without sacrificing Haste
Vers: should be (Crit - 15%)
Mastery: Avoid unless it gives you a significant ilvl bump (Str) or also gives you Haste

People tend to shit on gearing for damage, but dead mobs increase your survivability by a significant amount.

[Llarold]

the chance = to crit % to reduce damage by an extra 8% is really good

Actually, it's not.

800 Versatility grants 1% damage reduction.
4375 Crit grants 1% damage reduction through Skeletal Shattering.
4375 is a lot more expensive than 800, clearly.

People tend to shit on gearing for damage, but dead mobs increase your survivability by a significant amount.

Confirmed. Crit is an excellent dps stat, especially once you have a boatload of Haste. Increasing your damage in M+ is far more important than adding on second-class survival stats.
Crit is worse than Vers and even Mastery defensively for challenging raid content, but nothing in EN really qualifies. As for Nighthold, we'll see.


Edit: 4375, not 4350.

[huehuehue]

is it a coincidence that they have the same pair of legendaries or is that ideal gimmicky mythic+ combo?

[Deleted]

Actually, it's not.

800 Versatility grants 1% damage reduction.
4350 Crit grants 1% damage reduction through Skeletal Shattering.
4350 is a lot more expensive than 800, clearly.




Confirmed. Crit is an excellent dps stat, especially once you have a boatload of Haste. Increasing your damage in M+ is far more important than adding on second-class survival stats.
Crit is worse than Vers and even Mastery defensively for challenging raid content, but nothing in EN really qualifies. As for Nighthold, we'll see.

you totaly ignored the parrygain ? and actually and prob there wont be some bosses which global u so parry is great again.

[Tehr]

Haste is by far our most important stat, and while Versatility may be directly below it, I think it's very important to note that there is not a SINGLE piece of Haste/Vers gear in Emerald Nightmare, and such itemization is rare in Dungeons, too. As such, you will find players running with little to no Versatility because every piece of gear should have Haste on it unless the item level disparity is large enough to make it irrelevant. I only have two pieces of gear that do not have Haste on them, and they are 870 (Crit/Vers) and 880 (Mastery/Crit).

While I am not particularly well itemized (880 ilvl), I have 8831 Crit, 7087 Haste, 4460 Mastery, and only 460 Versatility, and this is by no means due to Versatility being a bad stat.



That being said, here are some things about Crit that are often not mentioned:

1) Blood Mirror can crit. I've been experimenting and so far I've been unable to conclude whether or not the DR side doubles as well, but at the very least the damage can crit. This makes Blood Mirror do quite a bit of burst, especially if you're lucky enough to crit a large damage hit (second hit of Eye Beam on Il'gynoth comes to mind).

2) Consumption can double-dip from Crit, so the heal can critically strike AND the damage can critically strike (for 400% healing from base damage).

3) Blood Plague is a significant source of healing in M+ dungeons, especially since it affects Umbilicus Eternus. Since Blood Plague crits increase the shield amount, having a high amount of Crit in an AoE situation makes your UE shield fucking stupidly big.

TL;DR
I would prefer to have Haste/Crit for Dungeons and Haste/Vers for Raids, but due to itemization you're often forced into running with very little Versatility and quite a bit of Mastery.

[Llarold]

you totaly ignored the parrygain ?

No, but this was about Skeletal Shattering. Parry from Crit diminishes incredibly quickly, much more in Legion than it ever had in past expansions. As such, gearing for Parry is a fool's errand.

Haste is by far our most important stat, and while Versatility may be directly below it, I think it's very important to note that there is not a SINGLE piece of Haste/Vers gear in Emerald Nightmare, and such itemization is rare in Dungeons, too.

The first of several great points. You wear what you have, not what you want to have.

3) Blood Plague is a significant source of healing in M+ dungeons, especially since it affects Umbilicus Eternus. Since Blood Plague crits increase the shield amount, having a high amount of Crit in an AoE situation makes your UE shield fucking stupidly big.

I agree, this is pretty significant and very frequently overlooked.

[Siyalib]

for optimal blood dps you want crit-15 = vers... its documented at this point and people should know this

[Snuffleupagus]

No, but this was about Skeletal Shattering. Parry from Crit diminishes incredibly quickly, much more in Legion than it ever had in past expansions. As such, gearing for Parry is a fool's errand.

While you don't gear for parry, you also shouldn't ignore that it comes from crit. When looking at a stat in comparison to another, you have to look at the whole picture.

[Llarold]

While you don't gear for parry, you also shouldn't ignore that it comes from crit. When looking at a stat in comparison to another, you have to look at the whole picture.

Right. In looking at the big picture, Crit is an inferior defensive stat.

At best, half of damage taken in raids is actually capable of being Parried. This means that the <1.5% Parry & .18% damage reduction (via Skeletal Shattering) you get from +800 Crit is demonstrably inferior to +800 Vers' 2% healing & 1% damage reduction.
800 Crit also gives 2.29% Crit, which feeds into Leech, Blood Plague, Umbilicus Eternus, and Consumption. These four heals generally combine for about 15-25% of real self-healing in raids. Remember, Versatility affects all self-healing, including Leech (by increasing initial damage, no double-dips), whereas Crit only affects Leech and Leech-like self-healing. As a result, Versatility is generally 3.5 to 6 times more effective for increasing self-healing than Crit - as it should be.

In Mythic dungeons, autoattack damage is a larger portion of damage taken, and more mobs means more room for Leech, Blood Plague, Umbilicus Eternus, and Consumption to contribute to self-healing. In that situation, Crit is not as far behind Versatility defensively as it is in single target. It's not better than Vers, it's not even equal, but it is better for dps. That alone makes it a better stat for Mythic dungeons.

Also, and most importantly, Haste/Vers just isn't as available as Haste/Crit. You can't wear what you don't have.

[Neudgae]

Actually, it's not.

800 Versatility grants 1% damage reduction.
4375 Crit grants 1% damage reduction through Skeletal Shattering.
4375 is a lot more expensive than 800, clearly.




Confirmed. Crit is an excellent dps stat, especially once you have a boatload of Haste. Increasing your damage in M+ is far more important than adding on second-class survival stats.
Crit is worse than Vers and even Mastery defensively for challenging raid content, but nothing in EN really qualifies. As for Nighthold, we'll see.


Edit: 4375, not 4350.

sorry to burst your bubble but im taking the word of world class tanks over some scrub in the internet

"Blood DK Stat Prio:
1. Haste Rune regen + more Runic Power + more survive, more abilities Blood Boil
2. Critical Strike (Parry, Skele shattering artifact ability, more healing)
3. Mastery = Versatility"

https://youtu.be/xv4e1km43Z4?t=10m38s

[chibichibiko]

sorry to burst your bubble but im taking the word of world class tanks over some scrub in the internet

unless you find yourself being healed by world class healers and accompanied by world class dps, you shouldn't think your situation will resemble the world class tank's. Llarold was discussing the defensive superiority of versatility compared to crit--they weren't wrong. Whether you need that survivability gain is largely dependent upon your situation.

Also, you're leaving out an important variable in your hypothetical:
Your extra damage dealt with crit gained by not having as much vers should be measured against whatever damage a healer has to sacrifice to put more heals on you. Group damage is more relevant than your damage, and there's a reasonable chance it softens the effects of gearing either way.

[Deleted]

sorry to burst your bubble but im taking the word of world class tanks over some scrub in the internet

"Blood DK Stat Prio:
1. Haste Rune regen + more Runic Power + more survive, more abilities Blood Boil
2. Critical Strike (Parry, Skele shattering artifact ability, more healing)
3. Mastery = Versatility"

https://youtu.be/xv4e1km43Z4?t=10m38s

Don't really matter what Sco says. Theory crafting is about doing the math right, it's not an opinion. The "scrub" provided the numbers and the conclusion is as follows :

- Versatility is a better defensive stat than crit by a big margin.

Whether you want a more defensive gear is up to you/situational. And if you have the luxury of choice.

[Keren]

its haste > vers >= mastery >> crit

"When Skeletal Shattering procs, Bone Shield provides 24% DR instead of the base 16%. This means that a Skeletal Shattering proc is as if you had a ~9.5% DR cooldown active. In order to calculate the time-averaged value of Skeletal Shattering, the following formula applies:
skeletal_shattering_dr = 1 - ( ((1-critchance)*0.84 + critchance*0.76) / 0.84 )
Example case at 25% crit: 1 - ( ((1-0.25)*0.84 + 0.25*0.76) / 0.84 ) = 0.0238 = 2.38% DR.
A more simple approximation for the DR is that the time-averaged Skeletal Shattering DR is a bit less than your crit% divided by 10, which holds true for most realistic levels of crit. This means that Crit Rating gains about 0.095%, i.e. just under 0.1% DR per 350 rating from Skeletal Shattering." - Thorlefulz

Versatility has two parts - 400 rating gets you 1% more healing and damage done, and it also gets you 0.5% less damage taken you're right that the 0.5% is passive, but that's not why it's good for us that 1% more healing applies to almost everything (doesn't work on bone shield iirc) that we do, including the DS heal and shield so I can spend 233 rating to get 1% more of DS heal as blood shield or I can spend 400 rating to get 1% more DS healing and 1% more blood shield (doesn't double dip, though) and that's ignoring the 0.5% damage reduction.

versatility will affect about 61% of the healing done whereas mastery will affect 27.34% of the healing done, mastery is 1.71 times as efficient as versatility but even with that factored in versatility still does more per point.

[Deleted]

Its hard enough to get an item in every Slot with haste being the higher stat. If you dont want to spend the rest of your life grinding m+ dungeons hoping for random titanforged proccs you wont have many decisions with haste/crit vs haste/vers.

Get as much haste as possible while trying to avoid mastery and you will be absolutely fine.

- - - Updated - - -

2) Consumption can double-dip from Crit, so the heal can critically strike AND the damage can critically strike (for 400% healing from base damage).

Are you sure about that? I have checked my logs from several raids and there has never been a critical heal. Healing from Consumption Plague and Leech etc only increase if the damage part crits iirc. the heal itself cannot

[Carnifexette]

Don't gear for defense. Gear for DPS. Having a good offense is your best defense you know...

[Life-Binder]

I think Haste > Crit >= Vers > Mastery for M+


but in reality you do this:

Get as much haste as possible while trying to avoid mastery

and will end up with haste & crit, with low mastery & low vers (low vers because thats how current gear just is & low mastery because you avoid it)