What can be done to fix the secondary stat problem in Legion?

[Spotnick]

Could be worst.. as a mistweaver, my best raid stats are versatility and critical strike.

My artifact and all legendary items all have haste/mastery.

Talk to me about secondary stats.

[Bombercloner]

Reforging removes the point of there being different stats.
It is not a problem an item of lower item level being better.
The players who think item level is king are the problem.

Once again I think there are two very different perspectives to this topic.

Some players have a guild that consistently clears normal/heroic/mythic EN and they can look and see what the best items are for their spec and wait for them to drop and get them. Occasionally they might get a titanforged piece of gear with terrible stats for their spec and not be able to use it. This group is fine without reforging because they will get all of their BiS pieces eventually (expect for maybe 1-2 slots due to bad rng which is 100% fine not everyone should have BiS).

Some players rely on personal loot 100% (Pugs, lfr, mythic dungeons). For them it can be very frustrating if the items that they get have stats that are not great for them. The game should feel rewarding, and constantly getting shiny new loot that is a dps loss isn't fun. This group of people needs something to make upgrading an ilvl 830 with a ton of their ideal stat easier (ie getting an 850 from a pug in normal EN from a bonus roll that doesn't have the right stat.)

I am curious to see the probability of getting full LFR EN BiS before Nighthold drops. I would imagine it is close to 0% chance of having every BiS piece whereas the player with a guild is almost guaranteed to get all the gear they want eventually.

[Mikah]

Quite simple:

1- Add back primary stats to ring and neck, and make the primary stat adaptable (agi/int/str) so that you can trade between different classes.

2- Lower the contribution of secondary stats to the % of haste/crit/vers/mast

3- Increase the contribution of primary stats to attack power/spell power


And you don't have to go crazy. Just a 1.1 fold change is probably enough to make it back to be interesting to keep the higher ilevel, except for extreme cases.

What is really annoying right now, is not just that some lower ilevel can be stronger, but also that you often need a completely different offspec set (including different enchants) because the secondary stats priority is the opposite. That couple with the titanforge lottery that makes it impossible to just farm two BIS sets. A 880 titanforge should be a happy roll, not a 'Sephuz's Secret' slit your wrist kinda feeling.

[Otimus]

Make every secondary stat at least 1-5% within range as useful as the other and never have a scenario where it's better than main stat. If that's too hard, then start removing some of them. (I'd be okay if we just had Haste and Crit, TBH, because I don't think Blizzard can balance more than a handful of things for whatever damned reason. Hell, you could probably roll Crit, Mastery, and Versatility all into it's own bonus damage stat)

More to the point: bad stats should not exist. A scenario where one stat is literally so bad that some entry level leveling neck is better than a legendary because of junk stats (a slight exaggeration, but still) should never happen.

There's also clear evidence, IMO, that Blizzard doesn't even know what their own fucking stats do. Weapons have stats that make no sense for how things are. Almost to the point of seeming to be entirely random.

[ComputerNerd]

Make every secondary stat at least 1-5% within range as useful as the other and never have a scenario where it's better than main stat. If that's too hard, then start removing some of them. (I'd be okay if we just had Haste and Crit, TBH, because I don't think Blizzard can balance more than a handful of things for whatever damned reason. Hell, you could probably roll Crit, Mastery, and Versatility all into it's own bonus damage stat)

More to the point: bad stats should not exist. A scenario where one stat is literally so bad that some entry level leveling neck is better than a legendary because of junk stats (a slight exaggeration, but still) should never happen.

There's also clear evidence, IMO, that Blizzard doesn't even know what their own fucking stats do. Weapons have stats that make no sense for how things are. Almost to the point of seeming to be entirely random.

Are there "bad" stats, or just inferior ones.
It is entirely a player-created issue.
It has always been the case that some are better than others.
Even if blizzard could by some means balance each stat to within some almost insignificant percentage, there would be players who claim one stat is better and therefore the only acceptable outcome.

[Deleted]

Just add main stats back to jewelry, but add all 3.

[Phookah]

Reforging removes the point of there being different stats.
It is not a problem an item of lower item level being better.
The players who think item level is king are the problem.

Because for 95% of wow's lifetime, ilevel WAS king. Your primary stat usually FAR outweighed your secondarys, so even if you loved Crit/haste, you wouldn't turn down a 20+ ilevel upgrade just because it has mastery/vers(or hit or expertise or any other stat they've removed over the years) because of the raw Int/Agil/Str, with a few extreme exceptions. Blizzard themselves have said they made a mistake in making secondary too powerful in relation to primaries this expansion, so your suggestion that its the players fault is incorrect.

[Bombercloner]

I like how the secondary stats have affected my game play. As a fire mage it's very nice having 60% crit 3 weeks after hitting 110.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I like how the secondary stats have affected my game play. As a fire mage it's very nice having 60% crit 3 weeks after hitting 110.

Problem, is some specs don't get the same benefit or even be so dependent on certain secondary stats. I don't necessarily want the stats removed but I feel liker certain classes/specs need certain treatment to make it not painful.

[Belloc]

Bringing back Reforging would solve all issues. Instead of that 880 piece being sharded/vendored, it could be an 3-4% upgrade over your 860 piece if you reforged it.

It would mostly solve the issue, while creating another one.

Another solution that would solve it: Allowing us to reroll the secondary stat to a random stat a limited number of times, costing a very expensive/difficult-to-acquire reagent. I'm thinking something like bonus loot roll tokens, but only able to be acquired once per week. The limited quantity of tokens would cause players to think twice before using these tokens on gear that doesn't especially need it and the limited amount of attempts per item would add in an item-sink mechanic. I think it would be a well-balanced solution, and bonus points for not making us have to reforge every piece of gear every time we get a new item.

[chronia]

I don't see it as a big problem at all, except for trading loot sometimes. its more of problem that alot of ppl have the "ILVL is ALL mindset. Before Gearscore / ilvl and the insane ilvl inflation of multiple difficulties became a thing (and there afster still in a few situations) is was very normal and alot of times even optimal to run lower items which were better itemized.

I mean in Vanilla on my Fury Warrior lvl 40 boE leather gloves were BiS till a C'thun drop just because they had weapon skill on them (i think it was the only glove item with weaponskill), On my Lock in TBC i ran Vestments of seawitch from Vashj all the way up to getting T6 chest from Illidan, same with the ZG Trinket Hex Shrunken head (if i have the name right) which i think i still used in Sunwell. Not saying that this is 100% optimal gear design (esp not on the part of lvl 40 gloves being BiS for a plate class for 75% of the length of Vanilla). But it was atleast fun to do the gear puzzle, same with setbonusses, back in those day's some times for classes wearing all non-set pieces, or for example only get a 2 piece bonus was optimal, it gave a nice way fo figuring out your best gearsets esp since the internet was not yet flooded with BiS lists which everyone eventually would get, there was a large chance you would never see a couple of BiS pieces. Now every tier its just get 4 piece, get the best offset piece and your sorted.

[Schattenlied]

Put Str/Agi/Int back on Rings/Neck, for starters.

[Deleted]

adding a single stat 100% reforge would easily fix the problem. the reason they removed reforge was because they said it was too "mathy" with hit and expertise. well, now that those are gone.... theres really no reason to not have them back, and it would easily solve an 840 ring being better than an 890.

or do something crazy

put Mainstats back on Ring/neck.

[Recom]

Add a passive to every class that increase str/int/agi by X% to make primary stat worth... something

[Wild]

Need reforging back, so simple, so good!

[Deleted]

Quite simple:

1- Add back primary stats to ring and neck, and make the primary stat adaptable (agi/int/str) so that you can trade between different classes.

2- Lower the contribution of secondary stats to the % of haste/crit/vers/mast

3- Increase the contribution of primary stats to attack power/spell power


And you don't have to go crazy. Just a 1.1 fold change is probably enough to make it back to be interesting to keep the higher ilevel, except for extreme cases.

What is really annoying right now, is not just that some lower ilevel can be stronger, but also that you often need a completely different offspec set (including different enchants) because the secondary stats priority is the opposite. That couple with the titanforge lottery that makes it impossible to just farm two BIS sets. A 880 titanforge should be a happy roll, not a 'Sephuz's Secret' slit your wrist kinda feeling.

Seems legit.

My solution:

Make all secondary stats completly random upon drop and put a forge in your class hall to salvage gear. The item(s) you get from salvaging can be used to reroll that stats on the gear you actually wear. So sooner or later, after enough rerolling, everybody can have their best stats on gear. (As far as i know a system like this exists in Diablo3?!). The weight and impact of secondary stats should also be reduced to degree where a higher ilvl item is better on most of the cases per default. Having best secondary stats would be more of a nice to have that brings a maybe 10% improvement over a worst stats situation. This of course needs having primary stats on each and every piece of gear.

[Deleted]

Are there "bad" stats, or just inferior ones.
It is entirely a player-created issue.
It has always been the case that some are better than others.
Even if blizzard could by some means balance each stat to within some almost insignificant percentage, there would be players who claim one stat is better and therefore the only acceptable outcome.

Its not player created problem actually. For some specs your best stat can be double the value of your worst stat...

[anaxie]

The easiest, simplest , quickest solution that doesn't involve sweeping changes and gutting and breaking classes.

Is it not obvious? Reads Reforging to the game. Oh noooo reforging boogyman. Buuuuurrrrr plebs hate him!

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I'm not sure why some people take reforging as some kind of personal attack or are like 'it's one more thing to do QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ' which is somehow a valid reason to not bring it back. If anything, it should have never left.

[Cronovey]

Its not player created problem actually. For some specs your best stat can be double the value of your worst stat...

This is very true; despite having literally double the crit of my haste/mastery/vers combined, crit is still the best stat for my Demon Hunter by quite a ways, and still close to agility in value. The other three stats are so close that they're actually interchangeable at this point as long as the item is a crit upgrade.

Adding primary stats back to rings/necks would be a good step in fixing some of the problem, but another potential solution would be a form of diminishing return on your stat ratings after a certain threshold to prevent you from stacking any specific one too far above the others (say, if your total in a certain stat passes more than 50% of your total secondary stats). While this would require some classes to be rebalanced (Fire Mage, Havoc DH, probably a couple others) it would make it so that dropping some crit (or haste, mastery, vers, whatever) to pick up a larger amount of the lower stats may be a viable option depending on the item level difference. For example, swapping out my 855 crafted ring for an 880 from my mythic cache for the week may have some value if A) it had a primary stat and B) the amount of haste/mastery on it was equal in value to the diminished crit on my ring from stacking so much of it.