How are holy and disc doing?

[Deleted]

Mind elaborating on this vague statement?

Let us take the current state. You have 5 healers and one mixed class and statistics for 7 different bosses. The healer does heal and the DMG output isn't there. It is easy to compare these 5 healers over 7 different encounters and start tweaking around to lift some up, that are behind and tune manacost here and there. Add some utility, to make the difference be resonable and you have done your tuning.

Then you have your one mixed class, one with an very high skill cap and therefore with a huge range of performance. The difference between good, medicore and bad on this spec, has a bigger impact compared to other classes. A mixed class you never had in over 11 years of existing of your mmo. The important part is: There are several things that are hard to "put a number on". The scaling with raid size and possible attonment targets are one thing (10-13 Man raids are very common). The other thing is, how much dmg equals how much heal. But it is hard, I cant really compare apples with melons.

The question is: What is a disc, is he a DD that helps out with healing in certain situation or is it a healer, who adds some DMG. (The problem here is: In the current state, people want to compare the numbers with numbers from different specs and classes).

If you ask me, I would change the Attonment mechanic. The current state is: Here you have attonment for 15 second, you have a strangely powerfull hot for the next 15 seconds (If your disc does damage). If your Dmg input exceeds the hot, you are going to die, if you are full, yeah just a bit overheal for you to feal safe.

What could be done to fix it?
First: Attonment can stack, with the stack reduce after 15 seconds. So you can give someone a more powerfull hot. (add a limit to it, maybe 3). This will also helps out in dungeons with haste/mastery gear and wasting attonments will be reduced a lot. (Reduces the skill cap a bit)
Second: Your Damage and Heal/shields (not attoment heal), will also apply to your attonment targets (maybe tune the current %). This gives you the opportunity to go full force on healing and just use penance and dot dmg to heal, or go without Dmg at all.
Third: Disperse/Collect attonment. Should be off GCD, very small mana cost and disperse/collect all attonment stacks to random (low health) targets or 3 to your target. This will help you with more reactive healing (disperse/collect into healing/DMG) and reduce the ridiculous overheal, when a lot of your targets get sniped.
Four: Cap the manacost on plea (6-7 stacks)

This way the introduction to disc isn't hard to learn and hard to master, instead it is medicore to learn and hard to master. Where the easy part is, where you just use your heals and handling your attonments and you are fine, mastering is the part where you add the dmg part to it. So you play with 4-5 buttons at the start just for basic healing and add 2-3 damage spells when you are ok with the first part.

Sorry for going OffTopic and my bad langugae, not a native english speaker.

[Deleted]

Yes I do. Thanks for assuming I don't, just because you disagree with me.



Not really that much more stationary than other healers. The way you're talking, it's as if every other healer can cast while moving.

I haven't played Druid/Paladin/Shaman at 110, but Disc and Mistweaver are in the same position of mobility: only 1-2 spells they can cast while moving. Disc can only use PWS/Penance while moving, or Plea for a few Atonements. Mistweaver can only channel Soothing Mist while moving (and that's only if you're specced into it, which you shouldn't be in raids) or cast Renewing Mist, or 1-2 Enveloping Mists if a TFT is used.

So I'm not really sure where you're getting this idea that Holy is way more "stationary" than other healers. It's only slightly more so.



If you spam it, yes.



Each talent has its niche uses. I never said CoH was the best for everything. Stop with the assumptions.

Every other class (except for MAYBE monks) have very decent or even important instant spells to use when they're moving. You're misinformed.

There is no content in Legion where CoH is a better talent than Apotheosis or Benediction.

[anon5123]

Every other class (except for MAYBE monks) have very decent or even important instant spells to use when they're moving. You're misinformed.

Disc can only cast PWS or Plea while moving; PWS has a cooldown and Plea doesn't heal for shit.

Mistweaver can only cast while moving if it uses a TFT, and even then it's only 1 EM, or 2 if you're specced into Focused Thunder.

Shaman can only cast Riptide or Healing Stream Totem while moving, outside of Spiritwalker's Grace.

Druids and Paladins are the only ones with a ton of instants. And most of Druid's are HoTs.

So no, YOU are misinformed.

There is no content in Legion where CoH is a better talent than Apotheosis or Benediction.

Got data to back this up?

Holy needs a better AoE healing cooldown than divine hymn.

You keep forgetting that Divine Hymn gives the entire raid +10% healing taken for ~18 seconds, in addition to its healing. That's why it doesn't heal as much as tranq.

[anon5123]

Which means that it can offer ridiculous throughput when stacked with an additional raid cooldown.

What exactly is giving you this ridiculous idea that 18 seconds of +10% healing is only good when another raidwide cooldown is used?

[SafariDiscoLion]

Disc can only cast PWS or Plea while moving; PWS has a cooldown and Plea doesn't heal for shit.

You conveniently left Penance out of your little rant here, which is Disc's biggest healing spell except Light's Wrath or a long CD, and can be used while moving and will hit every one of your Atonements. As for Holy, almost all of its healing is from Holy Words, Flash Heal, and Echo of Light. CoH isn't worth the mana cost and not-very-smart targeting when you could just be casting a couple of Flash Heals, particularly with Surge of Light, but it does make you more stationary. CoH is twice the mana cost of FH for half the healing done, and Trail of Light, Surge of Light, higher Echo, and potential Blessing of T'uure make it even more efficient. CoH will only benefit from an already up Blessing, though it may proc Surge.

[anon5123]

You conveniently left Penance out of your little rant here, which is Disc's biggest healing spell except Light's Wrath or a long CD, and can be used while moving and will hit every one of your Atonements.

I listed it in an earlier post.

CoH is twice the mana cost of FH for half the healing done

Since when does CoH do "half the healing" of a Flash Heal?

Seriously what the fuck?

CoH is 260% SP x 5 targets = 1300% SP

Flash Heal is 475% SP on 1 target, +9% from the artifact trait is 517% SP, and factoring in a 0-overheal Trail of Light brings it up to....724% SP.

On what planet is 1300 half of 724?

CoH might have worse healing per mana (due to being instant cast, and an AoE heal) but it does not heal for "half" of a flash heal.

[SafariDiscoLion]

I listed it in an earlier post.

But left it out when trying to argumentatively prove a point.

Since when does CoH do "half the healing" of a Flash Heal?

Seriously what the fuck?

CoH is 260% SP x 5 targets = 1300% SP

Flash Heal is 475% SP on 1 target, +9% from the artifact trait is 517% SP, and factoring in a 0-overheal Trail of Light brings it up to....724% SP.

On what planet is 1300 is half of 724?

CoH might have worse healing per mana, but it does not heal for "half" of a flash heal.

IF every single CoH heal hits a target who's actually damaged and won't overheal, which almost never happens because you can't control who it hits, but you can target specific FHs during an Aoe burst to heal specific targets. And, again, contributes more Echo, can proc Blessing as well as Surge, and Serendipity. CoH only has a slight advantage in purely theoretical numbers and none of the utility and extra benefits that simply using FH has on top of losing out on Benediction, which would arguably give better AoE healing, or Benediction if you have the right legendary.

[anon5123]

But left it out when trying to argumentatively prove a point.

I was making the same argument in the previous post.

Stop nitpicking.

IF every single CoH heal hits a target who's actually damaged and won't overheal

If you're overhealing with CoH, you're using it at the wrong time.

you can't control who it hits

It's a semi-smart heal like all other AoE heals. It only picks people who are below 100% health.

In order to get CoH to heal for "half" of a Flash Heal, you would need to cast it when there's only two people with more than 100k health missing. Which, again, is really fucking dumb because you don't need to be casting CoH in that situation.

contributes more Echo

What? Since when does Flash Heal get more benefit from Echo of Light than other spells? Last I checked, Echo of Light applies equally to all direct heals you do. CoH puts an Echo on each target it heals.

can proc Blessing as well as Surge, and Serendipity. CoH only has a slight advantage in purely theoretical numbers and none of the utility and extra benefits that simply using FH has on top of losing out on Benediction, which would arguably give better AoE healing, or Benediction if you have the right legendary.

And I'm not even sure why you're thinking I'm saying "cast CoH and never cast Flash Heal".

I'm not saying Flash Heal is bad.

I'm saying CoH isn't bad.

In a situation where there are 5+ people with lots of health missing, I'd rather hit CoH first and then FH, instead of spamming FH on individual targets.

[Fudal]

For what it's worth ( which isn't much) My observations from DH tanking( I have only tried healing as a pally this xpac) : Druids, Pally,and Shamans seem to have the most effective heals at lower gear levels. monks have good mobility but not as many big heals. Disc is awesome as always on tank healing, I think they need a little help on group heals [ I am not a fan of the new atonement model, I thought the old method without having to refresh it constantly was better].

I cry inside a little every time I get a holy priest healer, they are great at small continuous AOE heals. But, in my limited experience this expansion they are hurting on covering large damage spikes.

[Redfullmoon]

Have you actually seen a priest use Symbol of Hope though? I honestly don't think it's good enough to be worth taking over either of the other 2 talents.

i have it is the best for any raid team and doesn't affect your healing in the slightest.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...#view=rankings

[SafariDiscoLion]

What? Since when does Flash Heal get more benefit from Echo of Light than other spells? Last I checked, Echo of Light applies equally to all direct heals you do. CoH puts an Echo on each target it heals.

Flash Heal will hit individual targets much harder than CoH will.

And I'm not even sure why you're thinking I'm saying "cast CoH and never cast Flash Heal".

I'm not saying Flash Heal is bad.

I'm saying CoH isn't bad.

In a situation where there are 5+ people with lots of health missing, I'd rather hit CoH first and then FH, instead of spamming FH on individual targets.

I never said you did, I'm pointing out that you're drastically over-exaggerating just how useful CoH is to a Holy Priest who already has multiple AoE healing options, including our best and most efficient single target spell that can very effectively be used to spot-heal smaller bursts of AoE damage, while taking CoH loses you one of the best burst AoE healing setups we have (Apotheosis/Sanctify/PoH combos). CoH just isn't better than our other options in any situation.

[Deleted]

For what it's worth ( which isn't much) My observations from DH tanking( I have only tried healing as a pally this xpac) : Druids, Pally,and Shamans seem to have the most effective heals at lower gear levels. monks have good mobility but not as many big heals. Disc is awesome as always on tank healing, I think they need a little help on group heals [ I am not a fan of the new atonement model, I thought the old method without having to refresh it constantly was better].

I cry inside a little every time I get a holy priest healer, they are great at small continuous AOE heals. But, in my limited experience this expansion they are hurting on covering large damage spikes.

Not gonna judge your opinion about tanks but the half about healers is 100% wrong. Disc are not great tank healers. Holy are the best at burst heals. Gear scaling is very similar among all healers. The reason you see more druids/shamans is mostly because of CR/BL.

[Deleted]

Disc can only cast PWS or Plea while moving; PWS has a cooldown and Plea doesn't heal for shit.

Mistweaver can only cast while moving if it uses a TFT, and even then it's only 1 EM, or 2 if you're specced into Focused Thunder.

Shaman can only cast Riptide or Healing Stream Totem while moving, outside of Spiritwalker's Grace.

Druids and Paladins are the only ones with a ton of instants. And most of Druid's are HoTs.

So no, YOU are misinformed.


Got data to back this up?



You keep forgetting that Divine Hymn gives the entire raid +10% healing taken for ~18 seconds, in addition to its healing. That's why it doesn't heal as much as tranq.

You just said the exact same thing as I did. Every other class (except maybe monks) has important or good spells to cast while moving. Holy does not.

As for data about CoH being worse than the other talents: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...iest&spec=Holy

Either way, I am still convinced you don't even play holy. I don't mean to insult you since this is a priest forum, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. So let's stop arguing!

So long~

[Fudal]

Not gonna judge your opinion about tanks but the half about healers is 100% wrong. Disc are not great tank healers. Holy are the best at burst heals. Gear scaling is very similar among all healers. The reason you see more druids/shamans is mostly because of CR/BL.

Like I said it is all anecdotal and very limited. But, most of my group wipes and tank only survival battles have been when I had a holy priest healer. I have not had nearly the number of spirit runs even if I combine all of the other healers. This is not a good thing for me because the best geared healer in my guild currently is a Holy Priest.

[anon5123]

Flash Heal will hit individual targets much harder than CoH will.

That has nothing to do with Echo of Light healing. Echo of Light is always the same percentage of the heal.

And 30% EoL from 1300% SP CoH will always be more than 30% EoL from 724% SP Flash Heal.

...Actually, that would be a 517% SP Flash Heal, since Trail of Light does not proc Echo.

I never said you did, I'm pointing out that you're drastically over-exaggerating just how useful CoH is to a Holy Priest who already has multiple AoE healing options, including our best and most efficient single target spell that can very effectively be used to spot-heal smaller bursts of AoE damage, while taking CoH loses you one of the best burst AoE healing setups we have (Apotheosis/Sanctify/PoH combos). CoH just isn't better than our other options in any situation.

I'm not saying CoH is amazing, I'm saying it isn't bad.

You just said the exact same thing as I did. Every other class (except maybe monks) has important or good spells to cast while moving. Holy does not.

No, you claimed that Holy is the only healer that can't really cast much while moving.

Outside of Druid and Paladin, healers only have 2-3 non-cooldown spells that they can use while moving.

As for data about CoH being worse than the other talents: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...iest&spec=Holy

I never said CoH was the best in every situation.

Especially not in ultra-narrow situations like top parses.

Either way, I am still convinced you don't even play holy. I don't mean to insult you since this is a priest forum, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. So let's stop arguing!

So long~

"I am right and you're dumb, I'm gonna go now!"



Oh yeah, I totally don't play Holy at all, nope, never

To the ignore list you go. So long~

[Jizzele]

Disc also has rapture, which allows PW:S spam and more atonement blanketing ( If we are still talking about stationary/movements in fights ) which fits in super well with their toolkit. But Disc has a unique playstyle, and people do struggle with tracking everything and getting atonement stacks up before Heavy damage all the while avoiding mechanics.Which makes them think they are completely stationary. Simply put it's an advanced healing spec, that shouldn't be played if you can't spend the time learning it's ins and outs.

Holy has serenity which is a minute cd, and Sanctify which heals up to 6 targets and also on a minute cd. Renew is pointless apart from on tanks, so yea Holy is gimped into having to Hard Cast due too how efficient Flash Heal with ToL is ( And the serenity cd reduction). The only issue with Holy at this point is PoM still having a cast time. Remove it and the class would actually play like it should, leaving Benediction a more go-to talent and Apo for large AoE spikes where you can actually hard cast.

Holy is actually really strong at tank healing, but when damage is consistently high, serenity CD is too long to really keep them up. Though I do find myself more often then not topping healing on tanks by a rather sizable margin.

[SafariDiscoLion]

That has nothing to do with Echo of Light healing. Echo of Light is always the same percentage of the heal.

And 30% EoL from 1300% SP CoH will always be more than 30% EoL from 724% SP Flash Heal.

...Actually, that would be a 517% SP Flash Heal, since Trail of Light does not proc Echo.

Uh, what? CoH is not 1300% PER TARGET. Flash Heal is 517% on ONE PERSON. CoH is 260.

I'm saying it isn't bad.

Being "not bad" doesn't make it not redundant and pointless and cost you extremely valuable CDs.

Oh yeah, I totally don't play Holy at all, nope, never

Okay, no, now I genuinely believe you're just trolling.

[Saphyron]

Oh yeah, I totally don't play Holy at all, nope, never

Really only 18?
Either you are super casual. Or you just started playing that spec.

My 2nd alt has lvl 4 or 5 artifact power lvl and is higher artifact lvl than your holy priest despite not played him much since I got to 110.

[anon5123]

Uh, what? CoH is not 1300% PER TARGET. Flash Heal is 517% on ONE PERSON. CoH is 260.

And CoH is 260 on five targets = five Echo of Lights.

30% of 517 = 155

30% of 260 = 78 x 5 = 390

Herp a derp. Basic math.

Okay, no, now I genuinely believe you're just trolling.

What, because I don't have a maxed artifact, that means I don't know anything about the spec?

If I'm trolling though, then it's best that you stop replying to me. Goodbye!

Really only 18?
Either you are super casual. Or you just started playing that spec.

My 3rd alt has lvl 4 or 5 artifact power lvl and is higher artifact lvl than your holy priest despite not played him much since I got to 110.

Holy is my offspec. I don't grind AP, I just get it as I play.

I don't play 40 hours a week and grind as much AP as humanely possible like everyone else apparently does.

I'm at 27 traits for Disc.

[Saphyron]

And CoH is 260 on five targets = five Echo of Lights.

30% of 517 = 155

30% of 260 = 78 x 5 = 390

Herp a derp. Basic math.



What, because I don't have a maxed artifact, that means I don't know anything about the spec?

If I'm trolling though, then it's best that you stop replying to me. Goodbye!



Holy is my offspec. I don't grind AP, I just get it as I play.

I don't play 40 hours a week and grind as much AP as humanely possible like everyone else apparently does.

Only play half an hour to maybe 2 hours per day except raiding day.
Main: http://www.wowprogress.com/character...rhorn/Saphyron 26(holy) 15(disc)
Alt: http://www.wowprogress.com/character...derhorn/Kalepp 23(MM) 15(BM)
2nd alt: http://www.wowprogress.com/character...rhorn/Khadonos 20(Prot)