S2M Baseline?

[Deleted]

Yea but see... this is exactly why they'll have to probably remove s2m, or totally change it. s2m is VERY punishing. Take other classes dps cds... if you mess up with combustion, sure you do lose dps, but hey in 2 minutes its back up and you use it again. If you mess up s2m, rip, yer dead. So, since it's so punishing, it does HAVE to be very worth to use it, and so cant be as good as other level 100 talents. Yet, blizzard does want us to use other talents as well... but lets be honest, if all level 100 talents gave us the same dps increase, there would be no reason to use s2m when you can do the same thing without dying and the risk. It's pretty much impossible to balance s2m.

[DeltrusDisc]

I wish they would go in detail about stuff like this. I remember the majority of previous Blizzcon talk was about class design and stuff like that. Now they just hardly mention it without giving any specifics .

I feel like a lot of it stems from them having more and more games to talk about... maybe?

Didn't Blizzcon used to go on for more days though, too?

[Socialhealer]

It is not overtuned, the whole spec is based around it.
I think Mass Hysteria should be a big enough hint.

it's not overtuned? damn thats some good crack you're smoking.

if any other dps spec could spec or do something to be pulling the dps spriests are they would do it even killing themselves, instead spriests dominate emerald nightmare by like 100k dps, if every other spec had something, called eyyy if you fuck up you die if you don't you win the dps meters, that would get taken by every dps spec.

[Lucetia]

This is a quote from the front page: The team looked at all of the talent rows, there are some talents that are never worth considering. These talents may need tuning or redesign. The talents that 98% of players are taking may just need to be baked into the spec.

Is this in reference to S2M?

I doubt it will be baseline. They already said it is due for a rework because they don't like how it turned out to be. Maybe after the rework, but not before.

I feel like a lot of it stems from them having more and more games to talk about... maybe?

Didn't Blizzcon used to go on for more days though, too?

It's always been two days. They probably didn't go into a lot of details this time, because they aren't 100% sure how they want to tackle some of the issues yet. It'd be a lot of "We want to do this, maybe that, or this" and everyone knows how that ends with the community. "Well you said this only, not that." "You promised us this!"

[Deleted]

i hope they wont touch the playstyle of s2m because it is the most fun thing left to priest atm, where good players can shine too.

it's not s2m the real thing Overpowered, but twist of fate, power infusion and mass hysteria put a strong talent to a broken talent.

PS: s2m isnt stressful, quite at opposite, since you can cast in movement it makes your life so much easier.

[Myzou]

I think it was more a reference to skills like Sidewinders for Marksman hunters and such.

S2M was a skill they said they weren't too fond of everyone grabbing, but they were okay with spriests being a one-trick pony rather than a no-trick pony. They also said they were working on fixing the other 2 options, so why would they say that if they were making S2M baseline?

[Deleted]

i hope they wont touch the playstyle of s2m because it is the most fun thing left to priest atm, where good players can shine too.

it's not s2m the real thing Overpowered, but twist of fate, power infusion and mass hysteria put a strong talent to a broken talent.

PS: s2m isnt stressful, quite at opposite, since you can cast in movement it makes your life so much easier.

@that video: Do that without the legendary glhf!

I agree with everything you said though, as can be read in my previous post:

Am I the only one who frickin loves s2m? I love the thrill of being close to death all the time - one mistake and you're dead - and the fact that executing it perfectly usually puts you way above everyone else dps wise. Effort should equal reward, and s2m really requires effort, and is extremely rewarding if you manage to pull a perfect s2m off. And I'm hesitant to call any s2m thus far a perfect one. I feel like changing your stats just slightly may let you stay alive 1 or 2 seconds longer and make it even more perfect. Or using your spells just SLIGHTLY better to let you survive another few ticks of your dots. It's amazing.

To me, s2m is currently without a doubt the most fun dps spec in the game. The second would be ret paladins as they're amazing during Crusade, and quite similar to be honest except that you don't die when it runs out. I don't mind dying after the fight is over. It is a bit embarrasing when you somehow mess up and die while the boss is at 30% still, but I'm completely fine with that.

Surrender to madness has a very high skill ceiling, if not infinite skill ceiling, which makes it the most amazing spec in the game. Think about it for a second, have you ever done a s2m session where you could not improve in any possible way? I don't think I have. I have done many extremely good s2m sessions, and I may have felt like "I can't do better than this, this was fucking perfect", but I am very much convinced that there always is something I can improve. Delay that VB just 0.3 seconds, or be 0.3 seconds quicker on this or that, use my dispersion after casting that VB or using that PI just slightly later, and so on.

I frickin love s2m and I really hope they don't change too much about it. I wouldn't want a hunter have the simplest rotation and deal more damage than a spec that requires extreme effort. I don't mind if they nerf the numbers slightly, but you need to be very good at the game (or specifically at s2m) to really pull off the great numbers.

--

EDIT: I should add that I'm talking about raid environments, not on dummies. Perfectly predicting when the boss will die requires an extreme amount of practice and makes the skill ceiling even higher.

I can understand why s2m may not appeal to the casual player, but to a competitive player, s2m makes this game extremely fun, every day.

[Shyzhi]

S2M Will never be baseline. atleast... not in its current form. It will be reworked to give more insanity for a set time like 15secs or somthing stupid, i see Mindspike being removed and replaced. and LOTV being baseline and a new talent there. Hopfully somthing more aoe focused and somthing burst focused.

[Khorneflake]

@that video: Do that without the legendary glhf!

I agree with everything you said though, as can be read in my previous post:

Yes, this.

The problem lies with the community who scream out silly things about shadow being too op (when it's fire mages and hunters making up most of the rankings), complain that they only have one choice (which tbh is the most FUN, someone even suggested removing it in favor of a 3rd dot... wow...).

The ONLY thing that needs to change with spriest is number tuning and maybe make another 2 talents appealing for different content, why do people not find s2m fun? I just don't get it...

[Prancing Minstrel]

S2M put me off my Spriest because I didn't want to be pressured to literally kill myself regularly just to do competitive damage, if they make it baseline that won't change the situation at all. I would rather they completely reworked it to remove the death aspect or just removed it, it's an absurdly dominating part of the spec now.

[Deja Thoris]

Yes, this.

The problem lies with the community who scream out silly things about shadow being too op (when it's fire mages and hunters making up most of the rankings), complain that they only have one choice (which tbh is the most FUN, someone even suggested removing it in favor of a 3rd dot... wow...).

The ONLY thing that needs to change with spriest is number tuning and maybe make another 2 talents appealing for different content, why do people not find s2m fun? I just don't get it...

Such an ignorant post.

1) How can people not find something fun that I find fun? Inconceivable!
2) Who makes up most of the rankings (you meant parses, not rankings) is irrelevant. Top parses being head and shoulders above other classes make something OP, not class representation.

Learn to logic.

[Deleted]

S2M is the reason Shadow is a serious outlier with regards to balance.

I'd expect it harsh nerfed/reworked.

[AetherMcLoud]

i hope they wont touch the playstyle of s2m because it is the most fun thing left to priest atm, where good players can shine too.

it's not s2m the real thing Overpowered, but twist of fate, power infusion and mass hysteria put a strong talent to a broken talent.

PS: s2m isnt stressful, quite at opposite, since you can cast in movement it makes your life so much easier.

Where are those tentacles spawning on her back in the character menu coming from? The legendary?

[Khorneflake]

Such an ignorant post.

1) How can people not find something fun that I find fun? Inconceivable!
2) Who makes up most of the rankings (you meant parses, not rankings) is irrelevant. Top parses being head and shoulders above other classes make something OP, not class representation.

Learn to logic.

1) Because the way this spec played was available to see across various youtube videos and alpha/beta/ptr testing BEFORE the expansion release, you knew what you were signing up for when you rolled an spriest and nothing was changed beforehand. The people who invested into the idea that this expansion was made for mains did so with a wealth of choice beforehand, so that we had time to adjust to how they worked and wouldn't be expecting any major changes (which is not confirmed, but with the amount of bitching about a talent which isn't even the real problem...) before we poured hours into them. Is it not logical to assume that people who chose to play a class that isn't fun for them is illogical?
2) "Shadow being op" is the basis for the vast majority of why people want it changed, which is not logical and why I stated numbers need to change not the spec itself, why should the spec be changed? See point one. You see it all over the forums, "S2M is too op HURR DURR" when it's actually the MH that dishes out the real damage, you reduce this and keep the cap at 100 so when multidotting really shines for us in the NH our soon to be higher mastery doesn't fart on everyone elses dps.

But yeah, learning to logic is hard when you have a community that bitches and moans about something they had the chance to tryout beforehand, hell you even get a level 100 trial now... so stupid.

[Khiyone]

Am I the only one who frickin loves s2m? I love the thrill of being close to death all the time - one mistake and you're dead - and the fact that executing it perfectly usually puts you way above everyone else dps wise. Effort should equal reward, and s2m really requires effort, and is extremely rewarding if you manage to pull a perfect s2m off. And I'm hesitant to call any s2m thus far a perfect one. I feel like changing your stats just slightly may let you stay alive 1 or 2 seconds longer and make it even more perfect. Or using your spells just SLIGHTLY better to let you survive another few ticks of your dots. It's amazing.

You're not alone. There are very few "complex" talents that are actually rewarding to use properly, and having more of them is always a good thing.

[Shyzhi]

Where are those tentacles spawning on her back in the character menu coming from? The legendary?

Thats just void form they readded it back in after a mini patch broke it lol

[Deja Thoris]

1) Because the way this spec played was available to see across various youtube videos and alpha/beta/ptr testing BEFORE the expansion release, you knew what you were signing up for when you rolled an spriest and nothing was changed beforehand. The people who invested into the idea that this expansion was made for mains did so with a wealth of choice beforehand, so that we had time to adjust to how they worked and wouldn't be expecting any major changes (which is not confirmed, but with the amount of bitching about a talent which isn't even the real problem...) before we poured hours into them. Is it not logical to assume that people who chose to play a class that isn't fun for them is illogical?
2) "Shadow being op" is the basis for the vast majority of why people want it changed, which is not logical and why I stated numbers need to change not the spec itself, why should the spec be changed? See point one. You see it all over the forums, "S2M is too op HURR DURR" when it's actually the MH that dishes out the real damage, you reduce this and keep the cap at 100 so when multidotting really shines for us in the NH our soon to be higher mastery doesn't fart on everyone elses dps.

But yeah, learning to logic is hard when you have a community that bitches and moans about something they had the chance to tryout beforehand, hell you even get a level 100 trial now... so stupid.

My point stands, your points are stupid.

1) Not everybody plays alpha / beta / ptr and its a valid assumption to think that more than one talent choice on a line would be viable.
2) I agree its StM interaction with MH, regardless, it needs toning down no matter how you spin it.

[anon5123]

PS: s2m isnt stressful

"one mistake and you die" is pretty stressful for me.

And I'm a healer.

[Deleted]

like all things on Mythic raid, try to take bramble on cenarius mythic etc

[amythist]

Er...what?

"it's the only choice, so getting rid of it (baseline) will exaggerate the fact that it's the only choice" ?

That makes no sense. If it's baseline, you're not making a choice to begin with, because it's baseline. That's like saying "you have no choice but to use Mind Blast"....uh, yeah, because it's not a choice to begin with, it's baseline. And why exactly would it "push people away from the spec" ? You can't speak for everyone.

If they nerf it to where it's not the best anymore, then that's an interesting mechanic gone to waste because nobody will use it. Since it's such a unique ability that ties into the class mechanics and the class fantasy so well, I'd rather see it become baseline AND receive some nerfs so that it's not horrifically powerful. And have the fucking death mechanic removed because fuck that stress-inducing shit. No other DPS has to die if they fuck up a single GCD.

And along with making it baseline, buff the level 100 talent row so that the talents aren't useless. It's like the Holy Priest trinket from Archimonde, where it was so fucking terrible that literally, an empty trinket slot was better than that trinket. LOTV and Mind Spike are such negligible DPS gains that you could go without choosing either of them and not notice a difference in DPS.

it's not the same as Mind Blast however which has no downside/meaningful change in gameplay based around it

right now it's so good you have to use it, but at the same time, there are plenty of people that do not like the play style it generates, I mean there are already plenty of people that have been given up on Shadow due to not liking the play style, making it even more extreme is only going to push more away

and if they nerf it/remove the death mechanic then they basically just turned it into basic DPS CD all of it's flavor comes from the "skirting close to death" thing