Rets, what can we expect from patch 7.1.5?

[Deleted]

5) Replace Justicar's Vengence as it provides no use in late game where players will be spending most of their time
6) Seal of Light is being removed however, a light raid heal is being added. This makes no sense in a teir based around mobility and survival. I would like to see the 5% movement speed per holy power, or a talent increasing Shield of Vengence's cooldown, and absorb amount but, let it target an ally. This will help us live, and would make Ret more useful in mythic + and raid scenarios.

JV simply needs to benefit from artifact traits that buff our TV. It is still viable for PvP, world content and tank+4dps Mythic runs.

Don't diss Judgment of Light. If you look at logs, it does 10-18M raid healing on Mythic Ursoc for Prot and Holy, for essentially zero cost.
If there is no Holy/Prot taking it in a raid then it is a good idea to have at least a Ret pick it - it's not like we depend on the other talents in that specific row (definitely not in 7.1.5)

Not fitting the theme of a talent row is not really a concern since Blizzard specifically told us before that they want to avoid giving a theme to every row for every spec. (our 1st, 2nd and 7th rows do not have a clear theme already)

[Morally Grey Storm]

Do you diss a heap of shit?
You don't.
You just know it for what it is and avoid it.

[Ryuji]

Don't diss Judgment of Light. If you look at logs, it does 10-18M raid healing on Mythic Ursoc for Prot and Holy, for essentially zero cost.
If there is no Holy/Prot taking it in a raid then it is a good idea to have at least a Ret pick it - it's not like we depend on the other talents in that specific row (definitely not in 7.1.5

Not dissing judgement of light but those 2 charges of steed are too invaluable for me considering there's been strings of bad RNG happening during boss encounters.

Nythendra: "You love Rot, right? Want it back to back or the one after? K."

Renferal: "Hey I know you hate getting Venoms but I'm gonna give it to you, also have a Twisting Shadows right after."

<insert just about any boss with RNG picking mechanics here> :|

[Goldenboy1]

JV simply needs to benefit from artifact traits that buff our TV. It is still viable for PvP, world content and tank+4dps Mythic runs.

Don't diss Judgment of Light. If you look at logs, it does 10-18M raid healing on Mythic Ursoc for Prot and Holy, for essentially zero cost.
If there is no Holy/Prot taking it in a raid then it is a good idea to have at least a Ret pick it - it's not like we depend on the other talents in that specific row (definitely not in 7.1.5)

Not fitting the theme of a talent row is not really a concern since Blizzard specifically told us before that they want to avoid giving a theme to every row for every spec. (our 1st, 2nd and 7th rows do not have a clear theme already)

Firstly, Justicar's Vengence would not benefit from our artifact traits because it is a talent. Thats just not how they designed this, all traits benefiting any talents are because of the talent replacing the original spell. They wont make a loaded trait saying "Increase the damage of Templars Verdict and Justicar's Vengence by x%".

Secondly, I will diss Judgement of Light, 10 million healing on mythic ursocc is not impressive over the course of 6 or so minutes, many applications, and a larger lust to fight time ratio than other bosses. Each heal is only 6-15k heal, this may very well be over healing as your healers will have a majority of players topped off as soon as raid damage comes in. 10-18 million healing? Can you confirm that this is not over healing with log sources, I could be wrong, but this is my argument.

Thirdly, the talents clearly have themes. Row 1 focuses on situational damage, they want a strong single target, aoe, and jack of all trades however they did not balance the choices. All of theme increase your damage in some way. Tier two deals specifically with mastery play style, you have a choice of higher damaging Crusader Strike at the cost of less holy power, a holy power spam build, or a build focusing on mass Judgments to benefit Divine Storm. I will say our tier 7 has no connection.

[Deleted]

Secondly, I will diss Judgement of Light, 10 million healing on mythic ursocc is not impressive over the course of 6 or so minutes, many applications, and a larger lust to fight time ratio than other bosses. Each heal is only 6-15k heal, this may very well be over healing as your healers will have a majority of players topped off as soon as raid damage comes in. 10-18 million healing? Can you confirm that this is not over healing with log sources, I could be wrong, but this is my argument.

Based on logs, 89 out of the top 100 Holy Paladins use Judgment of Light on Mythic Ursoc. (and Guarm)

The currently top-ranking Holy pulled 13M raid healing from it over a 3:12 long fight, with 1% of it going into overhealing.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=23

Rank 70 pulled 22.11M healing from it over 5:00, with 1.4% wasted. ("Richturteil des Lichts")
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=21

It goes the same for Protadins. The rank 1 (for healing) tank got 18M healing out of the Judgment passive over 4:37, with 0.46%(!) wasted as overhealing. ("Правосудие Света")
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=1

It is a very strong healing passive. It only activates if the attacker is not on full health, and due to the relatively small amount of healing it almost never gets wasted, and newer applications just refresh the stacks to 40.

The only drawback is that it does not stack with itself on a single target if you have multiple paladins using it.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Based on logs, 89 out of the top 100 Holy Paladins use Judgment of Light on Mythic Ursoc. (and Guarm)

The currently top-ranking Holy pulled 13M raid healing from it over a 3:12 long fight, with 1% of it going into overhealing.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=23

Rank 70 pulled 22.11M healing from it over 5:00, with 1.4% wasted. ("Richturteil des Lichts")
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=21

It goes the same for Protadins. The rank 1 (for healing) tank got 18M healing out of the Judgment passive over 4:37, with 0.46%(!) wasted as overhealing. ("Правосудие Света")
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=1

It is a very strong healing passive. It only activates if the attacker is not on full health, and due to the relatively small amount of healing it almost never gets wasted, and newer applications just refresh the stacks to 40.

The only drawback is that it does not stack with itself on a single target if you have multiple paladins using it.

It's a very shitty passive healing picked by other specs out of sheer lack of options.
Picking this instead of DI is not a very wise choice.
We have a far superior option.
It's a guaranteed lifesaver. Judgement of Miniscule Heals is not.

[Deleted]

It's a very shitty passive healing picked by other specs out of sheer lack of options.
Picking this instead of DI is not a very wise choice.
We have a far superior option.
It's a guaranteed lifesaver. Judgement of Miniscule Heals is not.

Holy has Sanctified Wrath in the same row, which is most definitely a competitive pick. Fervent Martyr is... yes, that is indeed trash.
Prot's Aegis of Light is good in raids, just incredibly niche (gets a small cooldown buff, but still niche). Consecrated Ground is good in 5mans (to kite vs Necrotic) or on add-fights like Helya.

I do appreciate DI, but mostly for the cooldown reduction part, which is getting nerfed.
The damage is usually predictable enough in dragonslaying that the safety net is just a bonus, you usually see the stuff that would pop it coming.

I would not dispute that Judgment of Light is not viable in PvP or for WQs, but in raid/dungeon content it's a steady stream of heals with no real cost to us. It's not very interesting, but when you can spread the mini-heals across 20 people every few seconds, it's not a bad choice (and outperforms things like Aura of Mercy+Aura Mastery by 30-50% on fighst where everyone is hitting the judged target).

[Goldenboy1]

Based on logs, 89 out of the top 100 Holy Paladins use Judgment of Light on Mythic Ursoc. (and Guarm)

The currently top-ranking Holy pulled 13M raid healing from it over a 3:12 long fight, with 1% of it going into overhealing.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=23

Rank 70 pulled 22.11M healing from it over 5:00, with 1.4% wasted. ("Richturteil des Lichts")
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=21

It goes the same for Protadins. The rank 1 (for healing) tank got 18M healing out of the Judgment passive over 4:37, with 0.46%(!) wasted as overhealing. ("Правосудие Света")
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=1

It is a very strong healing passive. It only activates if the attacker is not on full health, and due to the relatively small amount of healing it almost never gets wasted, and newer applications just refresh the stacks to 40.

The only drawback is that it does not stack with itself on a single target if you have multiple paladins using it.

Oh I see, that is very useful then. I can see that also being healthy for us in mythic plus in combination with our healing Divine Storm trait. Im not sure if I would pick it though if its a unique effect. However, if it is not then stacking would be pretty helpful in raids.

[Deleted]

So far the game seems to queue the debuffs: If you have two paladins with Judgment of Light, then the second paladin's judgment will only start healing once the first paladin's has been fully consumed or expired.

Because of their much shorter Judgment cooldown, a Prot paladin can maintain the stacks on a single target all alone - this means that other paladins in the raid won't be able to utilize the talent.
Otherwise, it would take 1-2 Holy/Ret paladins to maintain stacks per target (depending on the amount of raid-wide damage), and any more would be likely wasted.

[dnicks17]

This new PTR build lol.

So now Chain is the new cloak, the cloak will be second best and every other legendary is shit.

Sprinkle in some Kings/Wisdom buffs for added hilarity.

[Deleted]

Execution Sentence is a well-designed ability, and if it was a dps gain on pure single target encounters vs Final Verdict then people could pick it. And if our Mastery did not make managing it a bit annoying at times...

I would personally add a mechanics to ES so that the debuff's duration is a lot shorter if the target is below 20% health (working as a semi-execute, and hopefully helping not wasting the ability by the target dying too fast).

As for Consecration, it should probably be turned into a baseline ability and/or changed so it affects us in some way, like it does for Prot.
Even if it is something simple, like "enemies are affected by Divine Judgment as long as they are standing in your Consecration" or "while standing in your Consecration you generate 1 Holy Power every 4 seconds" to give some use to the ability.

How can you even say such an abomination? ES is a terrible ability because it effectively has a cooldown and a shadow cooldown. It's simply dumb!
The cooldown has to be a multiple of judgment's cooldown or this will never be fixed out of its shadow CD.

And no consecration shouldnt be baseline because it will cost damage from our other abilities or it will be so situational that it will be a dead ability. It needs to be *removed*. Its good only for prot and for holy to have a bit of AoE. Give me Uthers divine storm with a 1m CD. Nice burst AoE with stun. Yes, thank you! Your mythic+ popularity will apreciate it.
Oh and don't even get me started on positional requirements. You must enjoy pain.

Out with the crap abilities, in with the new good ones. Both ES and consecration can go down the toiled along with holy wrath.

- - - Updated - - -

This new PTR build lol.

So now Chain is the new cloak, the cloak will be second best and every other legendary is shit.

Sprinkle in some Kings/Wisdom buffs for added hilarity.

Big sigh. They completely gutted the ring. A whooping 8HP!

I don't see damage compensation so yeepee we are all getting a nerf! Wonderful!

[Risale]

I feel like I have just been Negan'ed.

I feel like I have just been Negan'ed.

[Khain]

I don't see damage compensation so yeepee we are all getting a nerf! Wonderful!

So is every class

[Deleted]

Any changes, buffs for our aoe?

LOL.

Ret damage is fine.

[Deleted]

So is every class

I am not complaining just for Ret. I am complaining because everyone will be doing less damage. I don't like steps back after all the work i put in.

This is especially troubling because it will se mythic + progression back.

- - - Updated - - -

LOL.

Ret damage is fine.

Is... for now. These legendary nerfs hit us especially hard because cape+ring combo synergised with our crusade perfectly. Crusade is our viability, so the nerf to the ring in particular is very worrying. It's not just a damage nerf, its less TV's during that crusade window. That is a significant step back.

[dnicks17]

So is every class

Other than half the classes who didn't even have their best legendary touched...yet.

[Deleted]

How can you even say such an abomination? ES is a terrible ability because it effectively has a cooldown and a shadow cooldown. It's simply dumb!
The cooldown has to be a multiple of judgment's cooldown or this will never be fixed out of its shadow CD.

And no consecration shouldnt be baseline because it will cost damage from our other abilities or it will be so situational that it will be a dead ability. It needs to be *removed*. Its good only for prot and for holy to have a bit of AoE. Give me Uthers divine storm with a 1m CD. Nice burst AoE with stun. Yes, thank you! Your mythic+ popularity will apreciate it.
Oh and don't even get me started on positional requirements. You must enjoy pain.

Out with the crap abilities, in with the new good ones. Both ES and consecration can go down the toiled along with holy wrath.

ES is well designed in that it promotes planning and allows a larger burst than TV but only after the delay.
Whether or not you enjoy/can manage the cooldown and the shitty Ret/Arms mastery is not related to that.

Regarding Consecration, if it acted as a HoPo generator when damaging multiple targets, applied Divine Judgment to targets standing on it, or did absolutely anything besides mild ticking damage, it would not be a damage loss. Currently it is not worth taking purely because it delays our HoPo generation and only in extreme cases do we have enough targets to make up for that loss purely with its damage over time.
Positional limitations I couldn't give a shit about - we are competing with DKs for the title of 'least mobile dps', and we are already the worst at target-switching. Having Consecration wouldn't have an impact on that.

As for pain - why yes, I do enjoy it, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck with paladins for a decade.

[Neldarie]

Sorry but ES is horseshit (in all aspects of its design and clashing with other stuff ret has), end of story.
And Consecration goes hand in hand with it.

[Butosai]

I don't see damage compensation so yeepee we are all getting a nerf! Wonderful!

Retribution Paladin: Modifies Damage/Healing Done 12%

[Tanthoris]

With that 12% aura change I'm kinda hoping that blizz will try to move Ret away from only being viable because of Crusade without completely destroying it like we thought they were in 7.1 with that bad datamined version. I like Crusade n all, but well, I hate that I feel useless for 1min 30ish seconds during a boss fight because my spells don't hit hard enough compared to other classes.