On a scale of 1-10, how good are rogues in M+

[Tengokuq]

Compared to other classes, how good are rogues?
Outlaw
Sub
Assassination
For 9-13

[Deleted]

i'd say a 7.

rogue does everything decently, survivability is extremely good, but they dont have a battle ress or an aoe stun/incap which is the most important thing in m+, so sadly, until they nerf battle resses in mythic+, rogue will never be really top tier.

[Tengokuq]

i'd say a 7.

rogue does everything decently, survivability is extremely good, but they dont have a battle ress or an aoe stun/incap which is the most important thing in m+, so sadly, until they nerf battle resses in mythic+, rogue will never be really top tier.

Who would you call a " Top tier " ?
WW Monks?
Fire mages?

[Sephiroso]

i'd say a 7.

rogue does everything decently, survivability is extremely good, but they dont have a battle ress or an aoe stun/incap which is the most important thing in m+, so sadly, until they nerf battle resses in mythic+, rogue will never be really top tier.

No aoe stun, but outlaw rogues do have vanish+cheap shot. blunderbuss. bribe(humanoid) which is better than a stun imo. And in 7.1.5 we'll have shroud of concealment back.

[beebopcola]

No aoe stun, but outlaw rogues do have vanish+cheap shot. blunderbuss. bribe(humanoid) which is better than a stun imo. And in 7.1.5 we'll have shroud of concealment back.

i really struggled to get M13 as a rogue. i know its possible, but i kept thinking it would be so much easier if the group replaced me w/ a BM/MM/Ele/WW/Fury, simply bc of their knockdowns or stuns.

[SkyGlow]

You don't need to rate DPS on a scale from 1 to 10. There are just two groups.
Group 1 that has DPS classes that do insane trash dps, decent boss dps, bring aoe stuns / battle resses and will make your mythic+ run a nice experience.
Group 2 does everything okayish and work in mythic+, but are just simply worse than DPS in Group 1.

Rogue belongs to Group 2.

[Skaiz]

Assassination isn't bad at all. You have some massive priority target damage. Good sustained AoE. Big boss damage. As far as utility kidney shot is pretty neat, but thats pretty much it for utility. Not to mention that sexy shroud that is supposed to come back

[Nikkaszal]

I would happily bring a good rogue to a high M+ if I knew them. Mostly because I am that rogue >.>

But if there was a choice between an equally geared and skilled rogue, DH and enh shaman, then rogue would be my lowest priority of the three... DEPENDING ON WHICH M+ IT IS

Some things are entirely trivialised by having Cheat Death (looking at you Dantolionax on +12 and above).

[elfporn]

i'd say 9, when accounting for dps as well as survivability.

It depends on the instance and affixes too, like this week with tyrannical/volcanic rogue is amazeballs.

Rogues have feint and two immunities (cheat death and cloak) and by far the highest survivability of any spec except tanks.

And all three specs are really high dps - these days i'm usually sub unless the group needs an aoe spec (we bring a fire mage with the flame wreath trinket normally +another sub rogue) We have no issues getting to 12 or higher, provided our healer doesn't suck.

[Sephiroso]

I would happily bring a good rogue to a high M+ if I knew them. Mostly because I am that rogue >.>

But if there was a choice between an equally geared and skilled rogue, DH and enh shaman, then rogue would be my lowest priority of the three... DEPENDING ON WHICH M+ IT IS

Some things are entirely trivialised by having Cheat Death (looking at you Dantolionax on +12 and above).

A lot more things are trivialized by having Feint + Elusiveness.

[Deleted]

people really overrate damage in mythic+. there are simply three brackets for damage (assuming all DPS do the same damage you do):

1. Enough damage to complete a +15 fortified in time
2. Enough damage to complete a +15 tyrannical in time
3. Enough damage to complete both fortified/tyrannical +15 in time

it really is that simple. maybe you'd give a more of a fuck about dps if you try to 3 chest low keys consistently and only care about efficiency, but in higher mythics its actually just binary. you do enough damage or you dont. rogue falls in the third category for damage. however so do a lot of other classes that have either an aoe stun/incap, bres, bloodlust or even all of those things.

assassin and sub actually have pretty shitty cc/utility , outlaw has decent cc/utility. the simple truth is that the only thing rogues really shine in is their amazing defensive potential. however in many encounters it's more that it makes it easier to play for you and your healer, but you shouldn't die in those situations either way unless your healer is shitty.

that's why i don't give rogue anything above a 7. there are specs that have the same performance with way more valuable utility. i cannot even begin to express how important it is to have at least 2 battle resses in your m+ comp and multiple aoe stuns/incaps are mandatory in many instances, especially on fortified.
if your group already happens to have 2+ battleresses and at least 1 aoe stun + aoe incap, then a rogue fills the last spot very well. however if you don't then you are simply better off by first taking care of the most powerful abilities in mythics.

are rogues good enough to do all the relevant mythic+ content including keystone master? absolutely. are they among the best? sadly no.

[Nikkaszal]

A lot more things are trivialized by having Feint + Elusiveness.

Feint and Elusiveness are mutually exclusive DR sources. On the example of the BRH Shadow Bolt Volley, Feint on its own does not reduce the damage (only Elusiveness, for 30% damage redux). On high enough levels, this will still one-shot you through it. Cheat Death allows you to fully ignore this as a rogue.

BRH is a rogue's playground, and not just for Cheat Death. Feint beats Soul Burst on first boss, CloS beats the spiderling DoTs, Gouge/BTE/Blind are win vs the 2nd boss trash, and Riposte/Evasion are baller for the gauntlet if you get targetted. As mentioned, that's one M+ I would 100% recommend a rogue for (not just Cheat Death shenanigans).

[Sephiroso]

Feint and Elusiveness are mutually exclusive DR sources. On the example of the BRH Shadow Bolt Volley, Feint on its own does not reduce the damage (only Elusiveness, for 30% damage redux). On high enough levels, this will still one-shot you through it. Cheat Death allows you to fully ignore this as a rogue.

BRH is a rogue's playground, and not just for Cheat Death. Feint beats Soul Burst on first boss, CloS beats the spiderling DoTs, Gouge/BTE/Blind are win vs the 2nd boss trash, and Riposte/Evasion are baller for the gauntlet if you get targetted. As mentioned, that's one M+ I would 100% recommend a rogue for (not just Cheat Death shenanigans).

Shadowbolt Volley is an aoe ability yes? Which Feint reduces the damage of on its own.

[milkbonez]

People really under rate how sap as a cc doesn't put you in combat and can skip certain packs....but being honest, the utility is not on the same level as other melee dps (e.g. dk) but i think when we get shroud back that will change. We are pretty solid aoe dps for outlaw and assas and great st for assas. When the affixes merit it you could do worse than bringing a rogue.

[Dokujin]

I can only speak of +7 but I do feel like we lack utility. On a scale though I'd say 9 or higher for damage and 6 for utility.
I don't understand the hype of shroud coming back. I mean I like it for some scenarios but it wouldn't be good for m+ content as you need to kill "x" amount of mobs. I just have a hard time seeing where it fits in for m+ dungeons unless Blizzard is removing the amount of mobs you have to eliminate. If you want to have a good time in m+ content go with fire mage, mm hunter, or ww monk. The skill cap is very low for them, do tons of damage and have great utility. Rogues tear up raid content though

[Rikachan]

I play outlaw. Cleared 15 arcway one shot. Tied on total damage done with MM hunter and fire mage by dungeon's end. No AOE stun. Volcanic/Sanguine/Fortified.

Pre ghetto outlaw "buffs".

People forget just how good gouge is.

[Deleted]

Rogue is the best allrounder for any kind of keystones. We are able to do a lot of aoe dps, we are able to do a lot of cleave dps (which is very important for necrotic f.e.), we are able to switch and drive high punctual dps if its needed (f.e. to prevent bad bolstering). We are not movement-dependant (volcanic dont care). We can switch targets very fast (even sin). Our survivability is outstanding, how often did we saved the timerun as last man standing! Dont care about battle rezz, be a rogue and you will never need a battle rezz. Dont care about bloodlust, drums are also fine! We can also md'ing. We are fine for every time! 9/10 (because monk is broken again currently).

[Kaluna]

I play outlaw. Cleared 15 arcway one shot. Tied on total damage done with MM hunter and fire mage by dungeon's end. No AOE stun. Volcanic/Sanguine/Fortified.

Pre ghetto outlaw "buffs".

People forget just how good gouge is.

Maybe because volcanic was annoying for the 2 distant (who cannot finish their casts with this affixe).
And fortified is very good for outlaw, where it shines on pack with MfD.
Try it again this week with EU setup (sanguine / overflowing / tyrannical) and tell me how you did compare to a MM hunter and Fire mage.

[Deleted]

8 - Assuming you are Outlaw.
I like grouping up with Mages and Frost DKs (and druid healers) as they make up for what I don't have in CRs and Stuns/AoE disruption.

Pros
- Good burst and sustained AoE that does not depend on legendaries at all.
- THE best survivability of any spec. Nothing beats CD, Cloak, Feint and Riposte with TB.
- Some pseudo-utility with Blind/Gouge/Sap/Blind/BtE that has niches here and there, with Gouge being the most frequently used one to stop abilities like Blade Dance in BRH or a Shard cast in NL and so on and so forth.

Cons
- No AoE stuns
- no CR
- Limited ST dps if you don't have a good legendary and/or you are unlucky with rolls. Tends to suck for tyrannical if your group does not cater to your low to medium ST dps.

Not the best class/spec combo, but a case of the "among the worst of the best", if that makes sense?

The 9-10 class/specs are, in no particular order:

Mages are safer because they are ranged, while Mages can pull similar (or higher) Overall dps and MUCH better ST. AoE stun or CR, but yet they remain extremely viable due to sheer damage and Dragon's Breath being "good" enough, all while Iceblock and certain talents allows them to cheese frequently enough.

Hunters ^ Same thing. BM hunters don't do as much more ST as Mages do, but comes with a larger suite of utility. MM seems to have fallen off since the aimed shot nerfs, but in general they are extremely safe due to having HUGE range. Hunters also bring a decent AoE stun that really shines in certain dungeons vs mobs that jump/move a lot.

DHs have stronger burst aoe and an AoE stun, worse sustained AoE damage, though, but limited survivability. Generally a "better" choice than Rogues, but can fall short in certain dungeons where they have trouble surviving.

WWs have an AoE stun (arguable the "best" one), stronger burst aoe, similar sustained AoE and decent/good survivability. WW is basically just a better Rogue in most cases if the WW is capable. Not much to do about this, as this is just how he classes have been constructed. It's possible to beat WWs on ST since they run an AoE talent over Serenity, but the difference is small.

Elemental Shamans have similar AoE to Outlaw, both burst and sustained, and have the boon of being ranged, able to ress and has the best, most persistent AoE stun in the game. "Safe" due to being ranged, but has problems surviving high +s in certain dungeons (DHT, HoV comes to mind).

Those class/specs should be the main contenders for the spot the Rogue could be taking. Frost DK seems to be an up-and-coming class in m+ - They feature medium to high ST AND high sustained AoE, with INSANE burst AoE once every five minutes. Pretty squishy, though.

Some people seem to love Enhancement, but to me it seems that they die really, really easily, which is why I personally haven't mentioned them.

This is just my experience over ~200 runs in the 8-13 range.
I'd love to say that Rogues are S+ tier, but sadly that won't ever be true until they somehow get an AoE stun or a CR :P
I cannot personally speak for Assa/Sub as I have very limited experience with it, but I do know from logs that they do similar damage, just with worse utility and survivability.

[Deleted]

I'd love to say that Rogues are S+ tier, but sadly that won't ever be true until they somehow get an AoE stun or a CR :P

Combatrezzes are for pussys, dont fail = dont die