Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
... LastLast
  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes0773 View Post
    Not once did I say I don't like managing bleeds. I love it, so don't put words in my mouth. Wanting an alternative to BT doesn't mean I don't like bleeds, and I have been playing feral since it came out, so don't tell me what the spec is about. In fact, I like BT. It should still have a competitive talent with it in the tier though. Doing so in no way takes away from the spec.

    And yes, that is how talents are meant to work. At least some of them. That is why you have passive talents designed to be simpler alternatives, and you have other talents that almost compete.

    In fact, the SOTF/INCARN/SR tier is a decent example of this. The talent you choose depends on playstyle, preference, and content. You can pick any one and remain competitive mostly. Imho, SR is a bit overtuned and could be brought down a couple percentage points to better compete with SOTF. Our last tier needs to get this treatment, because BT is the correct choice in just about every situation and that is a huge problem. And this is the exact thing Blizzard mentioned they wanted to address with this patch: talents that everyone chooses.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Our tier 5 is pretty close to it. There will always be a mathematical winner, but if SR was toned down a couple percent that tier would be as close to a preference as you can get.

    The tier with Blood talons though? Not even a competition right now. That needs to be fixed. They are attempting it on the PTR, I just don't think it is there yet.
    At the end of the day it is all about numbers. Simply making the passive alternative on par or close to it is not the answer either because risk/reward. Blizzard needs to make the other options shine better in certain situations.


    There is absolutely no reason SotF should compete with SR in a single target situation. SotF is very competitive if not better than SR in most multitarget situations when trash/adds live awhile. That talent row needs zero changes outside of maybe a very minor buff to incarn. Nerfing SR which would result in an overall ST damage nerf for SotF to compete in that situation is a really stupid thing to ask for.

    You can not and never will be able to balance the talent system around personal preference. Which is why making things situational the way to go about it.

    The JW/BT rows are in a much much much need of attention because even in every possible situation you would never use the other choices.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanoth View Post
    At the end of the day it is all about numbers. Simply making the passive alternative on par or close to it is not the answer either because risk/reward. Blizzard needs to make the other options shine better in certain situations.


    There is absolutely no reason SotF should compete with SR in a single target situation. SotF is very competitive if not better than SR in most multitarget situations when trash/adds live awhile. That talent row needs zero changes outside of maybe a very minor buff to incarn. Nerfing SR which would result in an overall ST damage nerf for SotF to compete in that situation is a really stupid thing to ask for.

    You can not and never will be able to balance the talent system around personal preference. Which is why making things situational the way to go about it.

    The JW/BT rows are in a much much much need of attention because even in every possible situation you would never use the other choices.
    Simply making the passive alternative on par or close to it is not the answer This depends on the situation. Blood Scent is a good example. Additionally, it doesn't always have to be a passive.

    There is absolutely no reason SotF should compete with SR in a single target situation. First, I am talking a very minor change. SR should win single target, but barely. We will likely differ on opinion their though. But you keep focusing on nitpicking things other than my main focus: giving a proper alternative to BT. BT is a very divisive talent, and a viable alternative would go a long ways to making the spec open to more players. The more difficult talent would need to have a bit more damage, but there needs to be a realistic alternative.

    You can not and never will be able to balance the talent system around personal preference. Which is why making things situational the way to go about it. Blizzard does both and sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail. The fact remains though that they are still trying to give people preferences. Making them situational just means you end up taking every talent and swap around, which they are actively trying to fight in many situations. I will grant that they are inconsistent here though.

    The JW/BT rows are in a much much much need of attention because even in every possible situation you would never use the other choices.
    This is my biggest issue right now, and too many people protest this immediately because they like those talents, so they immediately try to silence any perceived competition to them. People need to see that more choices is only ever a positive. No one is saying remove BT or JW.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes0773 View Post
    Simply making the passive alternative on par or close to it is not the answer This depends on the situation. Blood Scent is a good example. Additionally, it doesn't always have to be a passive.

    There is absolutely no reason SotF should compete with SR in a single target situation. First, I am talking a very minor change. SR should win single target, but barely. We will likely differ on opinion their though. But you keep focusing on nitpicking things other than my main focus: giving a proper alternative to BT. BT is a very divisive talent, and a viable alternative would go a long ways to making the spec open to more players. The more difficult talent would need to have a bit more damage, but there needs to be a realistic alternative.

    You can not and never will be able to balance the talent system around personal preference. Which is why making things situational the way to go about it. Blizzard does both and sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail. The fact remains though that they are still trying to give people preferences. Making them situational just means you end up taking every talent and swap around, which they are actively trying to fight in many situations. I will grant that they are inconsistent here though.

    The JW/BT rows are in a much much much need of attention because even in every possible situation you would never use the other choices.
    This is my biggest issue right now, and too many people protest this immediately because they like those talents, so they immediately try to silence any perceived competition to them. People need to see that more choices is only ever a positive. No one is saying remove BT or JW.

    The big problem here is SR is either good or useless. There is no middle for that talent and preference comes second to numbers. Even if you made a combination of alternative talents competitive with SR people will still go for that low risk setup due to less room for error or being targeted with mechanics. There is no best of both worlds or winning as long as that ability is in the game in it's current state.
    Last edited by Lycanoth; 2016-11-22 at 11:01 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes0773 View Post
    Words
    If SoTF and SR get too on single target there becomes almost no reason to take SR because of just how few fights are purely single target, so far this expansion we've had what, Guarm and Nythendra ?

    As far as personal preferences go, they're pretty ok honestly, BS vs LI is a good example as they are so close, BS even overtakes LI on singletarget with better gear, but many top end ferals still play LI because of how valuable the saftey net it provides for bloodtalons is.

    JW should become baseline at this point no questions asked, and the tier revamped, would love a utility / healing tier like we had with nature's vigil, renewal etc in mop (renewal really doesn't belong in that first mobility tier either like we have currently but that's something else)

    BT is just a problem talent a this point, it's been around even longer than JW and has been so core to feral gameplay for 3 expansions now it should just be baseline. But it can't be baseline because for one the skill floor is already pretty high, secondly there are many out there that straight up hate the talent (same with SR). Thus it ends up in this wierd place where nothing on the same row as it can ever compete (or should on single target / multidot fights) But I agree that there should be an "easymode" talent that allows people learning feral or that don't like it an alternative option, again looking back to mists, the flat 8% agi from HoTW made it competetive with DoC in, and only in, the event that the player could not play DoC optimally. (or didn't want to for whatever reason.

    Edit: A word on SR, I'd personally like to see it baseline and the talent changed to be something akin to the WoD glyph that made it passive for the people that disliked playing with it. It's again a talent that deserves to be baseline, as it has been historically, but again can't be because extra layer of difficulty it adds ++ people who straight up dislike maintenance buffs.

    Personally I love feral the way it is, and the talents we have to take, but i'm fully aware there needs to be other options for newer players or again those that just dislike that playstyle, the problem lies with the current optimal setup, being the only setup because the competitors in their tiers are incredibly weak. and even poorly managed SR / JW / BT comes out ontop.
    Last edited by Zanzha; 2016-11-22 at 11:05 PM.
    Feral Meme machine

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Agartha View Post
    The single biggest complaint about feral playability is energy starvation and they've hit us in crit and OoC. I just don't understand this.
    No, it's not. The Feral energy bar is by far the best in the game and implemented perfectly. If you want to play a spec that has to get carpal tunnel and spam a shitty ability every single second, go play literally EVERY SINGLE OTHER CLASS in the game but stop trying to turn our absolute ridiculously awesome non-spammy cats into a button smashing shitfest.

    Being "energy starved", meaning not having to hammer the same button all the time, which takes 0 skill and is 0 fun, is the single best thing about Feral and the reason it's by far my favourite melee spec.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanzha View Post
    BT is just a problem talent a this point, it's been around even longer than JW and has been so core to feral gameplay for 3 expansions now it should just be baseline. But it can't be baseline because for one the skill floor is already pretty high, secondly there are many out there that straight up hate the talent (same with SR). Thus it ends up in this wierd place where nothing on the same row as it can ever compete (or should on single target / multidot fights) But I agree that there should be an "easymode" talent that allows people learning feral or that don't like it an alternative option, again looking back to mists, the flat 8% agi from HoTW made it competetive with DoC in, and only in, the event that the player could not play DoC optimally. (or didn't want to for whatever reason.
    Agreed mostly. Except that I don't want an easymode talent. I don't dislike BT because it is difficult. I dislike it because it takes a utility aspect of the feral and turns it into damage (and removes the utility). When PS was conceived it was supposed to allow you to root/clone/heal. Now it forces you to use a heal whether you need it or not, and you don't even get to CC. Regrowth has become part of my dps rotation, which is dumb as hell when you really stop to think about that.

    But yes, that talent is in a weird spot. I just felt it was worth mentioning that a lot of people don't just dislike it because it is hard. From what I have seen that is less than half the people that dislike it. Most just find it a clunky mechanic that takes away utility in order to eek out more dps.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes0773 View Post
    Agreed mostly. Except that I don't want an easymode talent. I don't dislike BT because it is difficult. I dislike it because it takes a utility aspect of the feral and turns it into damage (and removes the utility). When PS was conceived it was supposed to allow you to root/clone/heal. Now it forces you to use a heal whether you need it or not, and you don't even get to CC. Regrowth has become part of my dps rotation, which is dumb as hell when you really stop to think about that.

    But yes, that talent is in a weird spot. I just felt it was worth mentioning that a lot of people don't just dislike it because it is hard. From what I have seen that is less than half the people that dislike it. Most just find it a clunky mechanic that takes away utility in order to eek out more dps.
    I agree on the utility front entirley, BT should procc of anything that consumes PS not just regrowth. (also on that note rebirth shouldn't consume PS it makes literally zero reason at this point, make it cost 10 energy or something dumb if it has to)

    Also adding to the problem of BT, you can't get rid of it, because it would cause a similar reaction to the higher end playerbase to making it baseline would to the lower. Like, its just too engrained a this point to straight up remove without causing an uproar, and if you make it baseline there's an uproar, the competition just needs to be miles better.

    BRS is almost worthless because of its anemic recharge time, and that on aoe you often have predator, allowing you to spam swipe for far more than you could get out of brs on some extended pulls (batstairs / helya adds etc ) Personally i'd love to see it as a finisher that replaces ferocious bite that you can use on aoe.

    MoC just needs to go.

    Edit: tinfoil hat about the flat 5% crit nerf, I'm calling it here, probably going to be wrong, but I have a hunch that they might be removing 5% crit from everything to make room for getting crit from int / agi like the good ol days in order to help solve their problem with primary stats being too weak compared to secondaries.
    Feral Meme machine

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanzha View Post
    I agree on the utility front entirley, BT should procc of anything that consumes PS not just regrowth. (also on that note rebirth shouldn't consume PS it makes literally zero reason at this point, make it cost 10 energy or something dumb if it has to)

    Also adding to the problem of BT, you can't get rid of it, because it would cause a similar reaction to the higher end playerbase to making it baseline would to the lower. Like, its just too engrained a this point to straight up remove without causing an uproar, and if you make it baseline there's an uproar, the competition just needs to be miles better.

    BRS is almost worthless because of its anemic recharge time, and that on aoe you often have predator, allowing you to spam swipe for far more than you could get out of brs on some extended pulls (batstairs / helya adds etc ) Personally i'd love to see it as a finisher that replaces ferocious bite that you can use on aoe.

    MoC just needs to go.

    Edit: tinfoil hat about the flat 5% crit nerf, I'm calling it here, probably going to be wrong, but I have a hunch that they might be removing 5% crit from everything to make room for getting crit from int / agi like the good ol days in order to help solve their problem with primary stats being too weak compared to secondaries.
    agreed. I like the idea of MOC, but it just fails. I would take something like Rogue's Vigor talent, but we got SOTF doing that. Personally I think they need to add a talent that adds a mechanic to FB, and get a different gameplay style going. I am not a huge fan of FB over bleeds, but more playstyles never hurt.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes0773 View Post
    Agreed mostly. Except that I don't want an easymode talent. I don't dislike BT because it is difficult. I dislike it because it takes a utility aspect of the feral and turns it into damage (and removes the utility). When PS was conceived it was supposed to allow you to root/clone/heal. Now it forces you to use a heal whether you need it or not, and you don't even get to CC. Regrowth has become part of my dps rotation, which is dumb as hell when you really stop to think about that.

    But yes, that talent is in a weird spot. I just felt it was worth mentioning that a lot of people don't just dislike it because it is hard. From what I have seen that is less than half the people that dislike it. Most just find it a clunky mechanic that takes away utility in order to eek out more dps.
    I agree, at the very least BT should be triggered by Entangling Roots and maybe Rebirth.

  10. #50
    @Tradu

    It goes against what you define as being Feral. But as I have now written several times in this thread, following your maxime removes choices in both talent builds and when actually playing Feral.

    In an SR build, you basically only use SR and Rip as finishers. FB is removed from the rotation until target is below 25%. This makes the rotation easier, not harder. Easier.

    Waiting for an OoC proc for SR makes the rotation easier, not harder.

    Pooling energy before using a finisher to proc PS really doesn't make the rotation harder - it just makes it more rigid. You pool energy - use finisher - build combo points. I know, the uninitiated will sometimes be fooled into not pooling, thereby loosing the opportunity to use PS on the next Rip, but for all the rest of us, that kind of gameplay is now half a decade old. And speaking for myself: I hate having to heal as part of a DPS rotation. I would like to heal when I need the heal!

    I would like these choices back. I want to be able to perform more actions per minute than the energy starved SR build allows me. I would also like to be able to offheal. I would like to be able to CC - and for that CC to actually be needed.

    I actually want the game to be hard - not just by having a convoluted and counter-intuitive DPS rotation, but as in "play well or die" kind of hard. Like in TBC 5 man, where missing CC would wipe the group.

    By the way, have you noticed how the very capable Ferals have left us in Legion? Pawketz plays DH, Tinderhoof plays rogue. Why do you think that happened? You can read Tinder's answer in the attached screenshot.

    Your version of Feral risks pigeon-holing us into being a single target DPS spec, with so much attention on timers during gameplay that very few people will actually play it.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #51
    Losing 5% crit is obviously a nerf, it is ridiculous to claim otherwise. Feral wasn't singled out but it is definitely a nerf. I think there are larger changes coming so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that one change.

    The OoC change is mostly just confusing. It doesn't have much effect, it will make the spec a little more clunky and it is already a fairly restrictive play style. It seems a waste of development time to make a change that's main effect with be a decrease in QoL.

    The big thing is there is really no context for these changes yet. The talent tree is a mess and needs very large changes. If you want to improve the spec focus on that. These changes are trivial in comparison.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post

    stuff

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sounds like you just want it to be a rogue tbh

    Whats wrong with being the ST king of the game and having poorer aoe to compensate? Build mythic + groups around that fact, ask raid leaders to tunnel a boss and ruin it while burst classes clear up adds etc etc

    Not every class needs to be good at everything, and thankfully blizzard agrees with this
    Last edited by Morg; 2016-11-23 at 05:08 AM.

  13. #53

    Huge Feral Nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Morg View Post
    Sounds like you just want it to be a rogue tbh

    Whats wrong with being the ST king of the game and having poorer aoe to compensate? Build mythic + groups around that fact, ask raid leaders to tunnel a boss and ruin it while burst classes clear up adds etc etc

    Not every class needs to be good at everything, and thankfully blizzard agrees with this
    Wow, you really outdid yourself there.

    Let's pretend the "ST king of the game" is even true: Yep, mission accomplished. The devs have managed to dumb down Feral to only be about mastering snapshotting DoTs and pooling energy.

    In the meantime, the rogues do more CC and have better survivability. They also do really good ST. They'll even get an AoE stealth back soon, on a 6 min. CD.

    Same with WW monks (except the stealth part) - who can even AoE dps and stun!

    The hunters have better survivability (because ranged), better AoE and really good ST.

    Firemages - yeah well, they're just better.

    I could go on. The point is that it is an arms race in competing for the few dps spots, and only having one single niche in which to compete is simply not good enough.

  14. #54
    Sad to see displacer beast getting nerf on cooldown , from 30 sec to 40 :/ I use it in everywhere , from jumping clifs and such while wandering around the world long cooldown is very annoying. Why everything have to be raid related and such...

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksun80 View Post
    Sad to see displacer beast getting nerf on cooldown , from 30 sec to 40 :/ I use it in everywhere , from jumping clifs and such while wandering around the world long cooldown is very annoying. Why everything have to be raid related and such...
    Can't you use Wild Charge in Travel Form to jump cliffs?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post
    Can't you use Wild Charge in Travel Form to jump cliffs?
    Yes, you can.

    And this is obviously a PvP nerf not PvE.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    The OoC change is mostly just confusing. It doesn't have much effect, it will make the spec a little more clunky and it is already a fairly restrictive play style. It seems a waste of development time to make a change that's main effect with be a decrease in QoL.
    Not confusing at all, they wanted to buff MoC, the change to OoC allows them to buff it in a different way by only letting it be used on damaging abilities without stepping on the toes of Bloodtalons.

    % damage increase needs to be better probably, but its an alright idea
    Last edited by Kraineth; 2016-11-23 at 09:12 AM.
    Frequent Poster on Fluid Druid, The best Feral community out there

    My Character

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    Not confusing at all, they wanted to buff MoC, the change to OoC allows them to buff it in a different way by only letting it be used on damaging abilities without stepping on the toes of Bloodtalons.

    % damage increase needs to be better probably, but its an alright idea
    It seems highly unlikely to me that MoC could compete with BT even if it effected all abilities.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksun80 View Post
    Sad to see displacer beast getting nerf on cooldown , from 30 sec to 40 :/ I use it in everywhere , from jumping clifs and such while wandering around the world long cooldown is very annoying. Why everything have to be raid related and such...
    This is not getting nerfed because of raiding. This is more PvP nerfs trickling over to PvE. So much for the honor talent system and the stat template preventing this crap.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanoth View Post
    This is not getting nerfed because of raiding. This is more PvP nerfs trickling over to PvE. So much for the honor talent system and the stat template preventing this crap.
    They could easily separate the two. Don't just assume is nerfed because PvP without evidence. It is more likely they think it needs toned down for everyone, which is why they toned it down for everyone not just PvPers, which they are more than capable of doing.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •