Did blizzard mention anything about making feral's gameplay more enjoyable in 7.1.5?

[lotj]

Other classes have it MUCH MUCH worse than we do with rng, AR tends to do around what 6-12% of our damage on a really good pull. It's also somewhat controllable through proper pooling and I tend to get pretty consistent damage out of it over the duration of a fight. But yes you can still get shafted sometimes and that sucks.

You can influence its up time by a few seconds per proc, but it's up-time is going to be bad if it just doesn't proc.

Like I mentioned, my obsession with it started when I saw an Ursoc kill where I didn't break half a million damage on AR with a >95% rip up-time. I also had a dragons kill where it didn't proc once. No amount of "proper pooling" is going to help those.

Something feels busted with its current state.

We already have "bad luck" giving you an effective crit rate ~10% (or more) lower than what you have on gear. No reason to compound it with another rng ability that makes up ~10%.

[Darksun80]

Have feral as offspec, been like that in every expansion and it took me a while to get the rotation going and such. Main problem i have it the effort > reward really, considering having a sucky aoe, ST should have been way better at least. I can go to mythic+'s as resto fine but people having 2nd thoughts if they need a dps and have to take feral into the team

[Whitepaw]

yeah, i'm enjoying too it's fine in pve and even stronger in pvp. if people aren't happy with the rotation/etc, which as been similar for a few years now, why are you still playing the class?

Some of us have played this spec for 11 years now and things weren't always this convoluted and counter-intuitive.

I mean, go to fluiddruid.net, still the best forum for knowledge on how to Feral and what do you find? A thread discussing, in painful and boring detail, how to use an Ovale script to play the LI/SR/JW/BT spec to perfection! It is the most read and commented thread on that forum.

Feral has become very close to a spreadsheet and I hate that. And the thing that separates the 'good' Feral from the 'bad' is literally the ability to read up on forums and install that Ovale script.


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[GodKingSkovald]

The problem with feral isn't its complexity. I love this part of it to death. What I can't really stomach is reward vs effort. A rotation that is difficult should also feel rewarding, but with feral, that simply doesn't happen. For once, it's a very slow spec compared to others, which makes it rather unsatisfactory for WQs. It feels mildly annoying to require such a hefty setup to do damage, when other classes simply have high damage built into their spec instead of relying on artificial means such as SR.

Secondly, the AoE is pathetic. I'm sorry, but that's the brutal truth. I always do my WQs as guardian because it does better AoE than my cat and is infinitely more resilient.

Now, we finally get to the single target damage, where feral is supposed to shine, right? Well, there are numerous class and specs who will do better damage than you with half the effort. It feels bloody demoralizing to execute tactics well, to do my rotation well, and still have MM hunters, fire mages and rogues beat me. Why should I have to endure the throes of a complex rotation to achieve mediocre results? This is masochism, to put it mildly... I really hope they get rid of the annoyance that SR is. Even with that buff up, at 880 ilvl, my abilities still hit like a wet noodle, and Ashamane's Frenzy is downright pathetic for its long CD. Balance has a shorter CD on full moon, and that thing crits for a fuckton. Meanwhile, we have Ashamane's Frenzy that is only awesome due to combo points and Ferocious bite which is not ferocious in the slightest. Yeeeeeeeeeey.............

if MM hunters and fire mages are beating you single target, then you're screwing up or getting outgeared. big time.

[Miff]

Some of us have played this spec for 11 years now and things weren't always this convoluted and counter-intuitive.

I mean, go to fluiddruid.net, still the best forum for knowledge on how to Feral and what do you find? A thread discussing, in painful and boring detail, how to use an Ovale script to play the LI/SR/JW/BT spec to perfection! It is the most read and commented thread on that forum.

Feral has become very close to a spreadsheet and I hate that. And the thing that separates the 'good' Feral from the 'bad' is literally the ability to read up on forums and install that Ovale script.


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I have always played a druid, it was actually my first 60! The rotation/priority in wrath was just as rough as it is today imho. having to manage mangle, shred, rip, rake, sr, attack from behind, hit rating, expertise and kinda even FF. I honestly believe the class is much easier to play since cata.

[mojrer]

.
FWIW I love the complexity, but feel the spec lacks consistency due to layers and layers and layers of rng.

Same here.
Also enjoying feral right now, even with a bit harder rotation / abilities prio than other classes.
Still, AOE dmg is on the tank lvl or below... oh wait... unless RNG allows u for a clearcast or diplicate dmg from weapon perk there is a chance to not be the last dps on the dmg meter.
Its fine in the raid inviroment where u can shine in the fights that require movement with single boss or 2 long living targets to cleave but other than that is shit, especially comparing it to the classes who do few times more by simply hitting 1 button.
Really, the frustrating part is that even if u keep dots on everything u can, if u manage TR and Bloodtalons as u should and sperad rake and rip... someone else will simply hit one or 2 buttons and leave u miles behind.
In m+ enviroment where trash is somewhat harder than bosses and comess in packs u are a last prefered dps class for invite

[Whitepaw]

I have always played a druid, it was actually my first 60! The rotation/priority in wrath was just as rough as it is today imho. having to manage mangle, shred, rip, rake, sr, attack from behind, hit rating, expertise and kinda even FF. I honestly believe the class is much easier to play since cata.

Some elements are easier - we don't have 2 debuffs to keep up now. We also don't have to stay behind the target.

But some elements make it harder and they are quite difficult to figure out, because there is no in-game help. At least hit rating and expertise were explained back then. Snapshotting isn't explained and makes our DoTs work opposite of how other specs' DoTs work.

Feral has developed a sub-culture, where the initiated know the potential of the spec (on ST), while most others believe the spec is not able to deliver DPS. That's sad imo.


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[Miff]

Some elements are easier - we don't have 2 debuffs to keep up now. We also don't have to stay behind the target.

But some elements make it harder and they are quite difficult to figure out, because there is no in-game help. At least hit rating and expertise were explained back then. Snapshotting isn't explained and makes our DoTs work opposite of how other specs' DoTs work.

Feral has developed a sub-culture, where the initiated know the potential of the spec (on ST), while most others believe the spec is not able to deliver DPS. That's sad imo.


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I agree with what you are saying... I just don't see it being that large of an issue. Our class has a higher skillcap than most, and when people who aren't on the up-and-up try to make the switch to feral, they under perform. I've always, and i mean always, researched my class using forums/websites/etc. I don't know why a class needs to be changed so it's easier to play just because a percentage of players don't want to do the above.

Yes, we could change SR to cost no energy or just straight fk off BT as it's feels odd using a heal as a dps buff... but once you get comfortable with the priority/rotation, managing our abilities comes quite easy. It does suck if you stuff up though lol, you can literally watch your name go down the dps charts

p.s, we have the exact same post count lol

[Backlashe]

Some of us have played this spec for 11 years now and things weren't always this convoluted and counter-intuitive.

I mean, go to fluiddruid.net, still the best forum for knowledge on how to Feral and what do you find? A thread discussing, in painful and boring detail, how to use an Ovale script to play the LI/SR/JW/BT spec to perfection! It is the most read and commented thread on that forum.

Feral has become very close to a spreadsheet and I hate that. And the thing that separates the 'good' Feral from the 'bad' is literally the ability to read up on forums and install that Ovale script.


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If someone has to use a script to play their class, they are not a very good player.

[Whitepaw]

If someone has to use a script to play their class, they are not a very good player.

Well, it has been a tradition among Ferals since Wrath of the Lich King to have some fairly heavy theorycrafting discussions. It started on the forums of Elitist Jerks (US guild) and the first addons were actually able to perform the rotation. You just pushed one button when not in GCD and the addon would perform the ability that made most sense at the time. Blizzard stopped that kind of gameplay, ofc.

Having addons that suggest the next ability is fairly common, I believe. I don't use them, but I can understand why some might want to. Instead, I use addons that compress the necessary information as a head up display, so I don't have to do unnecessary eye movement or search for my debuffs on the target.

But the reason why I am in opposition to some of these people is because they argue that they like - and actually PREFER - for the Feral rotation to be complex and have a "high skill cap", because that allows them to differentiate from the "bad players", the idea being that it should be possible for good players to stand out.

At the same time, they use considerable time and resources to build complex addons and simulation tools that simplify their own decision making process and make suggestions to their dps rotation. Are they playing a game to have fun or to be a math challenge? And do they find reward in killing dragons or winning on the dps charts?

I prefer the former, because I believe the obsession with ranking on dps meters has already led the Feral spec in the wrong direction. Over the last 10 years, the Feral spec has moved from being non-viable in a raid setting (which was unacceptable) to being overly focused on single target dps.

The pendulum needs to swing back in my opinion, because the meta-game in Legion is a lot more differentiated than it has been for the last 3 expansions. We need better AoE (Make Swipe Great Again!) and we need more utility, including CC.

It also needs to swing back because I'm tired of these guys hijacking a spec I have played for 11 years and transforming it into something I don't think is fun.

[Backlashe]

Well, it has been a tradition among Ferals since Wrath of the Lich King to have some fairly heavy theorycrafting discussions. It started on the forums of Elitist Jerks (US guild) and the first addons were actually able to perform the rotation. You just pushed one button when not in GCD and the addon would perform the ability that made most sense at the time. Blizzard stopped that kind of gameplay, ofc.

Having addons that suggest the next ability is fairly common, I believe. I don't use them, but I can understand why some might want to. Instead, I use addons that compress the necessary information as a head up display, so I don't have to do unnecessary eye movement or search for my debuffs on the target.

But the reason why I am in opposition to some of these people is because they argue that they like - and actually PREFER - for the Feral rotation to be complex and have a "high skill cap", because that allows them to differentiate from the "bad players", the idea being that it should be possible for good players to stand out.

At the same time, they use considerable time and resources to build complex addons and simulation tools that simplify their own decision making process and make suggestions to their dps rotation. Are they playing a game to have fun or to be a math challenge? And do they find reward in killing dragons or winning on the dps charts?

I prefer the former, because I believe the obsession with ranking on dps meters has already led the Feral spec in the wrong direction. Over the last 10 years, the Feral spec has moved from being non-viable in a raid setting (which was unacceptable) to being overly focused on single target dps.

The pendulum needs to swing back in my opinion, because the meta-game in Legion is a lot more differentiated than it has been for the last 3 expansions. We need better AoE (Make Swipe Great Again!) and we need more utility, including CC.

It also needs to swing back because I'm tired of these guys hijacking a spec I have played for 11 years and transforming it into something I don't think is fun.

I wish I could argue any of this but it is all spot on, to be perfectly honest. Great post.

[Deleted]

I know its a patch that is trying to rework some spells here and there and make it easier, but did they mention anything about feral or should i give up hope on dreaming a smoother gameplay?

Can you give some examples on what you mean? By the title and your text i assume you want it to be easier (less debuffs/buffs to keep up.), but I can be wrong.

If that's so I have to disagree, I like the rotation the way it is. Some changes to make our AoE more viable yes, but doesn't necessarily needs to be changes in the rotation.

I much rather play a specc thats complex with a lot of spells to take in your rotation than having 3-5 buttons in your rotation. That will get boring really fast, atleast for me. Although if it was up to me I would make Feral a little more rewarding when played correctly. A complex spec with high reward and punishment if you mess up is what I want for the spec.

And to be fair, if you think feral is to complex there is talents you can choose to make the rotation easier (Blood Scent, Soul of the Forrest, Incarnation and so on).
Will maybe not be optimal dps wise, but come on how many here really compete for world firsts? I.E. different between BS & MF is very little, and takes 1 spell of your ration.

[ghostydog]

The thing I don't understand about your Ovale argument is that literally none of the top ferals use that, so saying we're simplifying our own decision-making is??? No. You talk to people in the top 50 or whatever, I'm pretty sure they'll tell you Ovale is just training wheels, more to actually help people develop muscle memory or get into the rhythm, or whatever. I could whip up weakauras that could do the same for a bunch of other DPS specs, just a bit less good. Ovale's not even that great, because it doesn't adjust to mechanics or timers, which you absolutely need to do to perform best. (And not to mention your fun vs maths dichotomy is hilarious. Some people have fun coding stuff for the spec they like playing. Surprise, they're not mutually exclusive.)

I started playing WoW (and feral) in WoD, took a break, came back to Legion solely because I wanted to play feral. I genuinely enjoy the complex rotation and it's one of the reasons I actually decided to stick with WoW instead of getting bored, never touched those rotation helpers, and somehow I'm still managing to be competitive at a very high level. I understand it doesn't suit everyone, but it's unfair and untrue to point fingers at how things are and accuse people who enjoy the current state of not liking fun or whatever. Don't speak for me. I'm having fun killing my dragons AND topping meters because I'm playing my spec good.

Post-lunch ETA: I'm not saying we're 100% fine. I agree that the skill floor is high compared to a lot of specs, and that it would be good to allow viable options to lower the barrier to entry. Having more diversity in builds would also be nice, but some of the criticism for it is misplaced (the SR row isn't that bad. SotF is extremely competitive the moment you move away from sustained single-target, and makes us very solid in cleave and AoE). But we're nowhere near as difficult as everyone makes it sound like and it's honestly getting frustrating. Feral is a smooth machinery and once you know which gears and levers to pull, you'll get more than good results.

[Zanzha]

The problem with feral isn't its complexity. I love this part of it to death. What I can't really stomach is reward vs effort. A rotation that is difficult should also feel rewarding, but with feral, that simply doesn't happen. For once, it's a very slow spec compared to others, which makes it rather unsatisfactory for WQs. It feels mildly annoying to require such a hefty setup to do damage, when other classes simply have high damage built into their spec instead of relying on artificial means such as SR.

Secondly, the AoE is pathetic. I'm sorry, but that's the brutal truth. I always do my WQs as guardian because it does better AoE than my cat and is infinitely more resilient.

Sounds like you need to git gud m8.

Joking aside Feral Aoe Is no way near as bad as most perceive when running the correct builds.

And the single target is very worth the effort / reward. Hell look at the 90th percentile + bracket on logs, in that top 10% there's still a huge amount of difference between 90th and 99, and then yet more in the gap between 99 -100 sure rng comes into it but more than anything is the huge skill ceiling on feral. I admit the skill floor is at one of its highest right now but if you overcome it you'll s tart to see great results.


------------------------------------

Some of us have played this spec for 11 years now and things weren't always this convoluted and counter-intuitive.

I mean, go to fluiddruid.net, still the best forum for knowledge on how to Feral and what do you find? A thread discussing, in painful and boring detail, how to use an Ovale script to play the LI/SR/JW/BT spec to perfection! It is the most read and commented thread on that forum.

Feral has become very close to a spreadsheet and I hate that. And the thing that separates the 'good' Feral from the 'bad' is literally the ability to read up on forums and install that Ovale script.

Fluid druid is more or less dead, everything has moved to discord pretty much.
11 years, for the last 6 ? since mop atleast we've had about the same build with bloodtalons in the form of DoC back then, and the build now is exactly the same as it was in WoD. There's a good saying, adapt or die, i would have thought you'd have adapted by now being such a skilled long term player of the specc, or rerolled away on realising the reason bloodtalons etc still exist is because the playstyle they produce has great depth and a vast majority of feral players play feral for that very depth.

None of the good feral's use Ovale, Ovale is by definition imperfect and flawed, a good set of weakauaras that help track your durations is all you need to make the correct decisions yourself. No wonder you think the specc is bad if you think using ovale makes you good at the class.

Having addons that suggest the next ability is fairly common, I believe. I don't use them, but I can understand why some might want to. Instead, I use addons that compress the necessary information as a head up display, so I don't have to do unnecessary eye movement or search for my debuffs on the target.

Ok but that's pretty normal theese days for player of every class, but atleast you get how it works

But the reason why I am in opposition to some of these people is because they argue that they like - and actually PREFER - for the Feral rotation to be complex and have a "high skill cap", because that allows them to differentiate from the "bad players", the idea being that it should be possible for good players to stand out.

At the same time, they use considerable time and resources to build complex addons and simulation tools that simplify their own decision making process and make suggestions to their dps rotation. Are they playing a game to have fun or to be a math challenge? And do they find reward in killing dragons or winning on the dps charts?

Ok maybe you don't get how it works, again no good feral is using complex addons or tools to simplify the decision making because the number of variables involved make it impossible to automate that process. We aren't retadins that can just install CLCret and go have an addon play the class for us. Like for real take your tinfoil hat off dude. The most maths that ever happens with some of these is stuff that tracks the %age bleedpower, but that's not even something that's mandatory as many players myself included simply remember what buffs they had when they applied x debuff because without trinket snapshotting we only have 2 - 3 including stealth selfbuffs that affect bleeds.

If a feral is standing out it is because they are good, sorry that you aren't good enough yet, or refuse to play the harder and more rewarding talent spec, sucks to suck doesn't it.

I prefer the former, because I believe the obsession with ranking on dps meters has already led the Feral spec in the wrong direction. Over the last 10 years, the Feral spec has moved from being non-viable in a raid setting (which was unacceptable) to being overly focused on single target dps.

The pendulum needs to swing back in my opinion, because the meta-game in Legion is a lot more differentiated than it has been for the last 3 expansions. We need better AoE (Make Swipe Great Again!) and we need more utility, including CC.

It also needs to swing back because I'm tired of these guys hijacking a spec I have played for 11 years and transforming it into something I don't think is fun.

FWIW i play with the former aswell and still get top 10 ranks on almost every fight, but obviously it's impossible to do that and i must have an addon playing the game for me :tinfoil:

So you want the specc to go back to not being viable for anything other than spamming mangle so other classes can do more damage, right.
Honestly if the class is focused on anything it's 2 target cleave that we shine on.

You are taking people enjoying the current state of feral as a personal attack get a fucking grip man . It has been this way for more than half of those 11 years it's time to suck it up and learn how to play.

[Whitepaw]

@Zanzha

Would be nice if you presented arguments instead of just telling people to learn to play - that is not what this discussion is about.

It is true that fluiddruid isn't the tome of knowledge it used to be - but it isn't as dead as you apparently think it is. The Ovale thread is very much alive. The thread is right here http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopi...5709&start=250, there are some people I think you'll recognise with fairly recent posts.

No, Feral should not be changed to being non-viable. You can stop your straw man argument. I wrote that our AoE should be 'better', which in this case means it should hit for more, so we can compete with other specs. I also wrote that we should have better utility, including CC. It seems Blizzard agrees with me in PvP at least, since they will buff both our utility and CC in patch 7.1.5, but I would like buffs for our PvE gameplay as well.

You're right about the Feral gameplay being unchanged since WoD (or largely unchanged, at least). Only problem is that the meta-game has changed. It is now a lot more focused on 5 man groups in Mythic+ instances. I would like Feral to adapt to that meta-game, which returns us to having better AoE and utility.

[Deleted]

@Zanzha I would like Feral to adapt to that meta-game, which returns us to having better AoE and utility.

But you complain about everything else instead.

Following is aimed at the general thread, I have no inclination of reading through so much crap again to quote where appropriate.

Single target rotation is in a good spot. Like every other spec, just reading up on the class skills in-game is not enough to make you a good raider and feral, like all other classes, needs add-ons to be played to perfection. But to claim that everyone uses Ovale is laughable, those of us often landing in the 95th+ percentile certainly don't, because doing so would keep us from being top.

As mentioned in Discord discussing this very thread, the main issue with FB being so shit is the exact existence of Sabretooth. That talent prevents FB from being buffed and should be removed, this would allow FB to be given slightly more damage or Sabretooth should lower Rips damage to allow for the same if we are to start throwing ideas around.

As for people complaining about our AOE, seriously, spec the right talents and you will go a long way. For M+ at high levels you wont see 10 mobs per pull, you will see 2-4 and with that you are purrfectly poised to stick to the M+ talent Soul of the Forest and maintain bleeds, Moonfire etc on all the mobs. Druids are not burst, we never were and never will be, we are about sustained damage and that is what we bring to the table. We can certainly agree that a buff to our AoE would be nice, but looking at logs and parses of a lot of people complaining about it, what I usually see is that people think they can just Thrash and spam Swipe. And then all arguments go out the window, because clearly there is a disconnect between solid theory and playing.

[Zanzha]

Would be nice if you presented arguments instead of just telling people to learn to play - that is not what this discussion is about.

I mean it is when people are saying that their effort isn't getting rewarded because if you play feral well and put in the effort it does get rewarded with some of the best single target in the game and absolutely stellar cleave.

You cannot make any statement regarding number's tuning on the class if you aren't even able to get 50% of the classes potential damage output, sure you can give feedback that the class is hard and perhaps the skill floor is too high and that it is difficult to manage in certain scenarios but straight up lying to yourself, and others by saying that the numbers are too low doesn't help anybody.

If someone sits here telling me feral isn't good single target or whines about terrible aoe then i am going to tell them to get good because that's the solution as the numbers are more than fine in both aspects, if they actually ask for help i'll gladly give something more constructive than that. How is it possible for people to see the top tier ferals destroying logs then decide, that actually no, the class is the reason they do bad, not the player.

TLDR people like to to believe that they are the source of the problem and will use any scapegoat they can.

It is true that fluiddruid isn't the tome of knowledge it used to be - but it isn't as dead as you apparently think it is. The Ovale thread is very much alive. The thread is right here http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopi...5709&start=250, there are some people I think you'll recognise with fairly recent posts.

The only name I recognise there is Guiltyas and Rogerbrown and I have many doubts about that poster actually being the Rogerbrown from method we all know and love. I mean you could sign up there right now as Fragnance and nobody would know because the nick isn't taken and there's no verification.

No, Feral should not be changed to being non-viable. You can stop your straw man argument. I wrote that our AoE should be 'better', which in this case means it should hit for more, so we can compete with other specs. I also wrote that we should have better utility, including CC. It seems Blizzard agrees with me in PvP at least, since they will buff both our utility and CC in patch 7.1.5, but I would like buffs for our PvE gameplay as well.

Our aoe is fine. It's not the best but its far from the worst, just because you can't brainafk and spam swipe doesn't mean its bad. I mean if ferals like you can barely manage the single target rotation then how do you expect them to manage multibleeding properly or abusing / forcing predator resets (when bolstering isn't in play)

As far as utility what the fuck are you on about, we have guardian / resto affinity, baked in offhealing, roots, an entire tier of useful cc, typhoon, bash, mass root, stampeding roar, one of the best melee interrupts in the game, (if nightelf shadowmeld stun), maim stun, and did i mention godlike mobility and one of the best damage reduction abilities available with SV ? It's as if you're playing a completley different class to what everyone else is.

The only utility we don't have is an aoe stun but many classes don't and that's fine considering how much else we have.
(not having cyclone in pvp stings a bit but up till recently we've had top tier split pressure damage there so w/e)

You're right about the Feral gameplay being unchanged since WoD (or largely unchanged, at least). Only problem is that the meta-game has changed. It is now a lot more focused on 5 man groups in Mythic+ instances. I would like Feral to adapt to that meta-game, which returns us to having better AoE and utility.

Feral has been focused on good singletarget for years, just like eleshaman has been focused on good aoe for years, they didn't make eleshaman amazing for singletarget when EN rolled around with all it's single target bosses and there's no reason for the inverse to happen for feral.

I also do countless +7-12 boost runs as feral (many as guardian and resto too because I don't confine myself to one spec) and typically come up top over so called "good classes" because the only situation we don't shine in m+ is very low keystones where you pull the entire dungeon and everything dies in a global. Furthermore our single target is just that good that it offsets our aoe even in the dungeon environment.

And that 5-man metagame has zero impact on actual progression barring gear, sure it helps greatly but at the end of the day it's the raidbosses that matter and feral is still going to perform there even when behind a couple of ilvls. As far as finding groups, sure dungeon finder sucks but that's because there are people out there that A) suck at feral and reinforce a negative stigma B) whine about feral aoe being bad (when it isn't) and in turn having a negative impact on the communities perception of the class. Which in turn results in it being hard to get into groups with complete randoms, in a guild that wants to progress however that all changes.


Literally nobody gives a shit about how well your class performs in m+ compared to the raid, if that was the case we wouldn't be seeing Method bringing 4 Shadow Priests to Helya.

Remember that 5 man mythic + was intended as an alternate route for casual players that can't commit to raiding, but still want challenging content to progress their characters. For many raiders now the only thing of value they have now is reliable AP and a fringe chance of titanforging the one correct item high enough. Main thing i wanted to get at here, mythic + in and of itself in the current state is a problem that it does end up being so important especially when you aren't raiding mythics as time goes on.

[Whitepaw]

We can certainly agree that a buff to our AoE would be nice, but looking at logs and parses of a lot of people complaining about it, what I usually see is that people think they can just Thrash and spam Swipe. And then all arguments go out the window, because clearly there is a disconnect between solid theory and playing.

Of course people use Thrash and Swipe - these two abilities practically scream AoE in the tooltip!

Your point: Thrash and Swipe do not give a high enough output in some AoE situations (with a target count of less than 5-6, iirc) to be competitive to multi-dotting. We should learn to play around that fact by multi-dotting.

My point: This game is designed by Blizzard to give a fun and enjoyable experience to the player - and designing abilities that are clearly meant for AoE situations (including several traits in our artifact weapon and a legendary item) and then undertuning these abilities is wrong. And it becomes a problem when other classes do not suffer the same in-build handicap, because their AoE abilities are actually able to - you know - deliver some pretty amazing dps.

Is this only a problem in lower M+? No. Situations where AoE abilities can be used arise all the time, which is a good thing because it varies the game. Additional targets should make me decide if I should reposition and use other abilities to counter them. But if my AoE abilities are underperforming, that alone simplifies my decision and gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

«Zanzha

As far as utility what the fuck are you on about, we have guardian / resto affinity, baked in offhealing, roots, an entire tier of useful cc, typhoon, bash, mass root, stampeding roar, one of the best melee interrupts in the game, (if nightelf shadowmeld stun), maim stun, and did i mention godlike mobility and one of the best damage reduction abilities available with SV ? It's as if you're playing a completley different class to what everyone else

Yep, the talents are there - but that doesn't make them viable. The Affinities are a cool idea, but Balance and Restoration underperform. Balance doesn't deliver enough dps, and healing in Restoration drains our mana bar. They are simply not balanced to give us non-trivial performance. I haven't tried the Guardian Affinity - I hope it delivers the off tank option that the devs have said was the intention. But the other two are underperforming in my opinion.

I agree that Stampeding Roar is cool - but again, I think it underperforms. The cooldown is too long, the range is too short. Fixed for Guardian (including some trait love in the artifact), but left untouched for Feral.

You forgot to mention Rebirth. One of the solutions to this utility issue could be to strip that ability from everyone else except the Druid class - but I guess too many would complain if that happened.

Nope - we are playing the same class and even spec. But where you look at the available abilities, I look at the value of these abilities. Value is relative and a lot of other specs simply bring more to the table. Having an ability like Dream of Cenarius (WoD talent - healing spells cast on an ally would also be cast on self) would be amazing - we should have that back. Having BT proc off any cast would also help, since that would enable us to CC with Roots without suffering a dps loss.

There are lots of different ideas for utility and we should start to express them now, with patch 7.1.5 on its way, because other specs already have better utility and the devs plan to add even more in that patch.

I won't quote your entire argument about M+, but I am left with the impression that you believe that these instances don't really count - it's the raidbosses that matter. At the same time, you also note that the gear from these M+ runs "helps greatly". Can't you see that you are contradicting yourself?

Yes, M+ gear "helps greatly". Just looking at your gear (I assume this is you http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanzha/simple), we can see that you wear 4 items from raid instances, 8 items from 5 man Mythics and 2 legendaries (and running Mythic increases the chance of legendary drops). Mythic instances is a huge deal, Zanzha. Character progression in the end game has a lot to do with gear progression, and gear progression in Mythic instances is huge in this expansion. Downplaying that simple fact is ignoring how the meta-game is for a lot of people right now.

And I don't think that that meta-game will go away. Blizzard has stated that there will be new 5 man instances in future patches and that M+ can be raised higher than 15. I think that's awesome - but the Feral spec should be able to compete in that meta-game.

PS: Yep, Cyclone would be awesome. But the changes to our PvP talents look really nice (albeit perhaps even a bit overpowered). I actually wish we had some of those ideas in our PvE talents as well :-)

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They could make Shred or Rake cleave 2 targets because the AoE is fu*cking bad to the point it is sad.

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And I don't think that that meta-game will go away. Blizzard has stated that there will be new 5 man instances in future patches and that M+ can be raised higher than 15. I think that's awesome - but the Feral spec should be able to compete in that meta-game.

can you stop being fucking retarded? Feral can more than deal with mythic +

I don't know what fucking drugs you're smoking but they must be some good shit holy fuck

Now, I hate linking wclogs statistics for m+ because largely they're not enormously relevant because not everyone logs their M+ but as an extreme (and not totally overwhelming point)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...99&timespan=60

This is the fight speed statistics for m+ 15 going back the last two weeks, As you can see feral is one of the top performing specs.

Notice i didn't link damage, because that isn't what feral excels at, ferals won't ever deal enormously high overall damage (in the current game, the huge buff to brutal slash in 7.1.5 might change that) however, they're more than an asset to your group. Ferals high boss and priority damage is exceedingly useful in M+ high levels where things die more slowly and our damage has a chance to get rolling.

Not having HUGE aoe doesn't make us bad in m+, please stop spreading this retarded fucking idea