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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Funny thing, every person that voted for Obama because he was black by definition is racist, as flaming racist as anyone that voted against him because he was black. Sad fact, but true... so you have millions of racists in the Democrat party, how horrible, I'm not going to point out that particular racist group that the Democrats started, because as the years fly by one fact remains. The Democrat party is exploiting the hell out of the black man. Just look at the shit that any black gets from the Democrat party for leaving the plantation, when they decide they dont want to be used as chattel and want to make their own way.

    (Note for moderators, if the GOP can be accused as a group of being racist, then its just as fair to point out the racism in the Democrat party)
    It's not racist to vote for someone because you expect their experience to more closely resemble your own, and therefore manifest itself in better policies for you. It's no different than all of the Catholics that voted for Kennedy, or the veterans that voted for McCain. However, voting for someone because they are white isn't the same. Black is an ethnicity and a race. White is just a race. It would be racist to vote for someone because they are white, but it wouldn't be racist to vote for someone because they are a Polish immigrant and so are you, so you expect them to reflect your values better. Since white is not an ethnicity, such votes make no sense if based purely on the person being white. There is no shared white experience or white values. There are lots of white ethnicities that individually share experiences or values, but not white people as a broader group.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    A hit piece on the Tories and everyone on the right, by Nick Cohen in the Guardian. Can't call him biased though, he wrote a book that criticised other lefties, though not his version of left wing ideology, funnily enough

    Old school conservatism is alive and well, we keep winning elections and will do so for the forseeable future. Trying to tarnish traditional conservatives, by associating us with the far right at every conceivable opportunity, is the Grauniad's weapon du jour, it is getting tiresome and is not benefiting the left at all.

    When it comes to which side is in chaos, then the left needs to look closer to home.

    Having said that, maybe there are seeds of change germinating amongst the Islington lefties, there was an article in the Guardian today that criticised Castro...shocking I know, probably made them choke on their decaf lattes and organic fairtrade digestives.
    Isn't neoliberalism part of old school conservativism? Most of the backlash seems to be against it and oddly enough people on the left should be the ones behind movements like Trump,Brexit and Le Pen.

    Before anyone says it I'm aware that I'm not using the word neoliberal correctly, but ffs lets accept it has a different meaning for popular culture.
    Last edited by NED funded; 2016-11-27 at 01:45 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Funny thing, every person that voted for Obama because he was black by definition is racist, as flaming racist as anyone that voted against him because he was black. Sad fact, but true... so you have millions of racists in the Democrat party, how horrible, I'm not going to point out that particular racist group that the Democrats started, because as the years fly by one fact remains. The Democrat party is exploiting the hell out of the black man. Just look at the shit that any black gets from the Democrat party for leaving the plantation, when they decide they dont want to be used as chattel and want to make their own way.


    (Note for moderators, if the GOP can be accused as a group of being racist, then its just as fair to point out the racism in the Democrat party)
    That was a stupid point.

    Blacks have been overwhelmingly democrat forever.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Right wing nationalism covers such a wide spectrum, that it is pretty much meaningless unless you define what version of it you are talking about. For example, comparing One Nation Conservatives such as Disraeli (a right wing nationalist) to National Socialists like Hitler (a right wing nationalist) would be utterly retarded.
    "No one may be indifferent to the racial principle, the racial question. It is the key to world history. History is often confusing because it is written by people who did not understand the racial question and the aspects relevant to it... Race is everything, and every race that does not keep its blood from being mixed will perish. . . Language and religion do not determine a race--blood determines it."

    Who said that? Hitler or Disraeli?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  5. #25
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    He also writes for the Spectator;a minor detail to be sure .
    And? Journals often have columnists or contributors with an opposing point of view. He is still a leftie, whether he writes in the Guardian or Torygraph.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post

    Old school conservatism is alive and well, ...
    Yeah, maybe on Beta Reticuli or Mars.

    Back here on Earth though, the U.S hasn't seen an 'old school Conservative' since sometime around Eisenhower, and Nixon would be called a libtard and run out of his own party.

    It's amazing what human beings can get used to tolerating given enough conditioning and time.

  7. #27
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    And? Journals often have columnists or contributors with an opposing point of view. He is still a leftie, whether he writes in the Guardian or Torygraph.
    Who gives a shit if he's a lefty? I only wrote that opening sentence because I knew someone like you would come along to instantly dismiss the article without reading it because of the website that published it. Not everyone fits into pre-determined "left or right" molds. The article I posted is a defense of traditional conservativism against a movement of slimy populism. Just because you can't make the distinction, it doesn't mean there isn't one. It also doesn't mean that writers like Nick Cohen don't have a point to make about conservativism because they were at one time, or are currently, on the left.

  8. #28
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "No one may be indifferent to the racial principle, the racial question. It is the key to world history. History is often confusing because it is written by people who did not understand the racial question and the aspects relevant to it... Race is everything, and every race that does not keep its blood from being mixed will perish. . . Language and religion do not determine a race--blood determines it."

    Who said that? Hitler or Disraeli?
    Disraeli, the Jewish-born Prime Minister of Britain, who admired the Arabs so much that he thought them becoming less Arab would be disastrous and hoped they could restore the former glory of that region. What is your point? Did he advocate the extermination of any race? No. Was he a product of his time? Yes.

    I take it you've not read Tancred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Yeah, maybe on Beta Reticuli or Mars.

    Back here on Earth though, the U.S hasn't seen an 'old school Conservative' since sometime around Eisenhower, and Nixon would be called a libtard and run out of his own party.

    It's amazing what human beings can get used to tolerating given enough conditioning and time.
    Pretty sure the UK is not on Beta Reticuli or Mars, yet we have old school conservatives in power. Unless you don't regard the oldest extant conservative political philosophy to be 'old school'.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Disraeli, the Jewish-born Prime Minister of Britain, who admired the Arabs so much that he thought them becoming less Arab would be disastrous and hoped they could restore the former glory of that region. What is your point? Did he advocate the extermination of any race? No. Was he a product of his time? Yes.

    I take it you've not read Tancred.

    Pretty sure the UK is not on Beta Reticuli or Mars, yet we have old school conservatives in power. Unless you don't regard the oldest extant conservative political philosophy to be 'old school'.
    "The political equality of a particular race is a matter of municipal arrangement and depends entirely on political considerations and circumstances; but the natural equality of man now in vogue, and taking the form of cosmopolitan fraternity, is a principle which, were it possible to act on it, would deteriorate the great races and destroy all the genius of the world."

    Who said it? Disraeli or Hitler?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  10. #30
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Who gives a shit if he's a lefty? I only wrote that opening sentence because I knew someone like you would come along to instantly dismiss the article without reading it because of the website that published it. Not everyone fits into pre-determined "left or right" molds. The article I posted is a defense of traditional conservativism against a movement of slimy populism. Just because you can't make the distinction, it doesn't mean there isn't one. It also doesn't mean that writers like Nick Cohen don't have a point to make about conservativism because they were at one time, or are currently, on the left.
    I read it, it is just another article from the Guardian trying to shore up their crumbling worldview. Even the old time left are getting and sick and tired of their bollocks, which is all about "Look how bad they are!", without offering any practical, let alone better, alternative.

    Cohen doesn't do unbiased critical analysis, I would be surprised if he has even claimed to do so, therefore claims of bias have merit.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Disraeli, the Jewish-born Prime Minister of Britain, who admired the Arabs so much that he thought them becoming less Arab would be disastrous and hoped they could restore the former glory of that region. What is your point? Did he advocate the extermination of any race? No. Was he a product of his time? Yes.

    I take it you've not read Tancred.
    "Is it the universal development of the faculties of man that has rendered an island, almost unknown to the ancients, the arbiter of the world? Clearly not. It is the inhabitants that have done this. It is an affair of race.… All is race, there is no other truth."

    Which book is this from? Tancred or Mein Kampf?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  12. #32
    Conservatism is well and alive in several christian-dem parties.
    Populism is not exclusive to, nor a defining feature of conservatives. That some representatives turn their ears towards the fringe doesn't reflect in the tenets of the ideology, nor the voters: populism is simply more efficient at power-acquiring. So, yes: the easy course is to join all the other conservatives sniffing the air and deciding that it is safer and more profitable to be a fellow traveller with populism than its principled opponent.

    I personally think this was a major failure of the XX century: mixing principles with power. We should collectively strive for more cynicism when it comes to governing: replace virtue with consequence.
    Take abortion and how conservatives come to terms with it: is not virtuous by any standard, but the consequences of not allowing it are much worse. The specifics of how they walk that path is reflected in the tortuous policies they craft around it; but nevertheless, they eventually pass through the hoop. Like the do on many other wedges.

    Conservatism has a golden age before them: delineate that the political landscape traditionally is not as retarded as today. They will subvert their current platform and debate if they want to protect cherished symbols and rituals, or protect the very fabric of society.

  13. #33
    Immortal Zelk's Avatar
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    Having read What's Left I can say with absolute certainty Nick Cohen is a fraud

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Lol. Typical.

    Conservatives get all pissed off when they are all grouped together.....then turn around and want Muslim bans, black lives don't matter and elect a guy who put Bannon and Sessions in the cabinet.
    Yep...lol...typical. Some one points about that there are deplorable on both sides and that neither side is righteous, and it's refuted by only pointing out the acts of one side.

    Great job.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Conservatism is well and alive in several christian-dem parties.
    Populism is not exclusive to, nor a defining feature of conservatives. That some representatives turn their ears towards the fringe doesn't reflect in the tenets of the ideology, nor the voters: populism is simply more efficient at power-acquiring. So, yes: the easy course is to join all the other conservatives sniffing the air and deciding that it is safer and more profitable to be a fellow traveller with populism than its principled opponent.

    I personally think this was a major failure of the XX century: mixing principles with power. We should collectively strive for more cynicism when it comes to governing: replace virtue with consequence.
    Take abortion and how conservatives come to terms with it: is not virtuous by any standard, but the consequences of not allowing it are much worse. The specifics of how they walk that path is reflected in the tortuous policies they craft around it; but nevertheless, they eventually pass through the hoop. Like the do on many other wedges.

    Conservatism has a golden age before them: delineate that the political landscape traditionally is not as retarded as today. They will subvert their current platform and debate if they want to protect cherished symbols and rituals, or protect the very fabric of society.
    The fundamental problem is that, unless society is completely just, conservatism is, by definition, a movement to preserve existing injustice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yep...lol...typical. Some one points about that there are deplorable on both sides and that neither side is righteous, and it's refuted by only pointing out the acts of one side.

    Great job.
    There is nothing brilliant about lazy false equivalency. If one party is run by and for the extremists, while another part simply as fringe extremists on the outskirts identifying with them, it isn't all the same.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yep...lol...typical. Some one points about that there are deplorable on both sides and that neither side is righteous, and it's refuted by only pointing out the acts of one side.

    Great job.
    Following your "logic", if 5% of the left was racist and 75% of the right was racist, then they are equally racist and deserve the droll you're spewing.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The fundamental problem is that, unless society is completely just, conservatism is, by definition, a movement to preserve existing injustice.
    Justice is a social construct. Any piece of existing legislation is just by definition.
    It's only a "problem" if one wants to subvert justice. Which we all do, mind you, but it's not really an obstacle: it's the name of the game.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    I read it, it is just another article from the Guardian trying to shore up their crumbling worldview. Even the old time left are getting and sick and tired of their bollocks, which is all about "Look how bad they are!", without offering any practical, let alone better, alternative.

    Cohen doesn't do unbiased critical analysis, I would be surprised if he has even claimed to do so, therefore claims of bias have merit.
    The better alternative is legitimate conservatism; like the article states. Trump doesn't have an ounce of Edmund Burke, William F. Buckley, or even the likes of Ronald Reagan in his body. Everything Trump has said concerning politics before his run for president would align him closer to Michael Bloomberg, not conservativism. That's the entire point of my post, not how biased or unbiased Nick Cohen is.
    Last edited by downnola; 2016-11-27 at 02:13 PM.

  19. #39
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "The political equality of a particular race is a matter of municipal arrangement and depends entirely on political considerations and circumstances; but the natural equality of man now in vogue, and taking the form of cosmopolitan fraternity, is a principle which, were it possible to act on it, would deteriorate the great races and destroy all the genius of the world."

    Who said it? Disraeli or Hitler?
    I can tell you've never read any of Disraeli's works. He advocated that people kept to themselves, as they built the nations prosperity and mixing things up may destroy that prosperity.

    Once again, he was a product of his time, he didn't advocate extermination of other races, he was opposed to what would be today multiculturalism.

  20. #40
    I'm Spanish ad I vote for Podemos in Spain (its name means "We can"). It's a leftist "populist" party friend of Alexis Tsipras from Greece and the Five Star Movement from Italy.
    Podemos talk about the EU too, about why a financial and non-democratic organisms like the IMF can use extortion to turn down the free will of the people (like they used in Greece).
    Are we really FREE when we can vote a president and a Congress that in reality cannot apply anything they promised but what other financial and market organisms let them to apply?

    Trump won not because people is idiot, he won because people is growing TIRED of traditional parties that do nothing to address your country's problems and their only work is to go to the typical G20 or international summits to take the traditional photograph all together shacking their hands and smiling while the financial markets are the true governors.

    I'm Spanish. European. Westerner. And I'm growing tired of all this bullshit we're calling "Western democracy" when it's not a real democracy. Stop lies. And because the traditional parties and traditional candidates (as Killary) won't change anything, better to shake the very foundations voting for people like Trump o Beppe Grillo in Italy, or Pablo Iglesias in Spain. At least they want to fight (politically speaking) to change this fucking bullshit.

    Thanks for reading and sorry if I had some spelling or grammar mistakes.

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