New Shadow nerfs?

[Kilee25]

Multiple top SPriests have been saying that with S2M in it's current form, it's near impossible to balance SPriests properly, so it should not exist. They are also well aware that if it were to be nuked without complete overhaul of T100 talents and the class in general, SPriests would be pretty much crippled. One big example of this was Isentropy's "State of Shadow" post prior to 7.1.

The notion that StM is just completely bad for the spec and needs to go away is a relatively new thing. During Alpha & Beta most of the loudest feedback was overly positive. StM was hailed as "the most interesting ranged caster ability ever." There were a handful of long posts expressing concerns that it wasn't balancable, but these got drowned out by the cries of "something new" and "not boring."

Moreover, I would say that most of the negative feedback about spriests in general seem to be spurring from this community specifically. I don't see similar thoughts being voiced on H2P for instance. The core voice over there is primarily, "We're fine, learn to play and practice harder. Get out of the class if it's too hard for you." Personally, I think there's a fairly large, but publicly silent group that feels this way about spriests. They (still) feel that StM is the best thing that ever happened to the game.

[Deleted]

S2M is fun, challenging, innovative, and allows us to do a whole lot of damage, so of course from a point of view we all love it. The problem here is Blizzard. Blizzard should have known that if they make a talent like this, very risky and hard to master, then it should be VERY rewarding. It seems like they were fine with it for whole beta and yet now they act surprised and want to nerf it, without realizing that if s2m sucks then not only shadow sucks but also we end up having a cd that kills us and is very risky while other classes have a much easier life. And since this is where blizzard seems to be heading, we rather get rid of s2m and have changes that make us still competitive.

[Nyel]

Moreover, I would say that most of the negative feedback about spriests in general seem to be spurring from this community specifically. I don't see similar thoughts being voiced on H2P for instance. The core voice over there is primarily, "We're fine, learn to play and practice harder. Get out of the class if it's too hard for you." Personally, I think there's a fairly large, but publicly silent group that feels this way about spriests. They (still) feel that StM is the best thing that ever happened to the game.

If they're saying this about StM... that's okay. If they're talking about Shadow Priests overall, they're wrong. Shadow Priests are fine for raids or very high Mythic+ dungeons (when they've got pretty decent gear). With lower gear and in lower Mythic+ dungeons Shadow Priests are rather a hindrance than a help and that's were the issues start. You've got a pretty big bunch of Shadow Priests being great due to their equip and StM and you've got a pretty big bunch of Shadow Priests that are pretty underwhelming or mediocre at best due to their equip and well... the existence of StM (which they mostly don't use).

[Deleted]

hey there, Im really sorry for changing the subject... kinda.. but I thought it would be best to ask here than to create a new thread..

I had a shadow priest at the start of the expansion, but with work and IRL issues, i had to stop playing for a bit. Planning on coming back.. but now I see all these changes to shadow priest. I know that so far shadow priest has been much better than all the sims picture us, with movement and all mechanics, etc.
So the question is: What do you think will happen to shadow priest with these changes? is it gonna become worse than it is now? Seen some guilds stack shadow priests.. Is that coming to an end? Shadow priest not good anymore?

Again sorry for the noob question mid thread.. and thanks

[Kilee25]

S2M is fun, challenging, innovative, and allows us to do a whole lot of damage, so of course from a point of view we all love it. The problem here is Blizzard. Blizzard should have known that if they make a talent like this, very risky and hard to master, then it should be VERY rewarding. It seems like they were fine with it for whole beta and yet now they act surprised and want to nerf it, without realizing that if s2m sucks then not only shadow sucks but also we end up having a cd that kills us and is very risky while other classes have a much easier life. And since this is where blizzard seems to be heading, we rather get rid of s2m and have changes that make us still competitive.

I think your opinion is probably the "real" opinion that got communicated to Bliz during Alpha/Beta, and this is the main point I have been trying to make. "Top players" don't actually want shadow to change or for StM to go away. They just want it to be/remain OP, and that potential was visible from the start, and people were stoked about it.

Difficulty doesn't matter. The other talents don't matter. One great raiding talent gets the entire spec a "pass" during the design phase, because raiding is by and large the most important thing to the success and longevity of the game.

[Isentropy]

The notion that StM is just completely bad for the spec and needs to go away is a relatively new thing. During Alpha & Beta most of the loudest feedback was overly positive. StM was hailed as "the most interesting ranged caster ability ever." There were a handful of long posts expressing concerns that it wasn't balancable, but these got drowned out by the cries of "something new" and "not boring."

Moreover, I would say that most of the negative feedback about spriests in general seem to be spurring from this community specifically. I don't see similar thoughts being voiced on H2P for instance. The core voice over there is primarily, "We're fine, learn to play and practice harder. Get out of the class if it's too hard for you." Personally, I think there's a fairly large, but publicly silent group that feels this way about spriests. They (still) feel that StM is the best thing that ever happened to the game.

Not actually true, during most of the alpha StM was nothing but a meme talent. It wasn't until several changes, direct and indirect, that StM actually had to be considered as an actual talent. Even still, there was a lot of feedback (at the very least not 'a handful' as you're suggesting) thinking that it was still a meme, tunneling on the fact that it kills you mostly and picking that as the reason why StM is bad. Fact was that Blizzard had very openly communicated in March that they think StM is perfectly fine design-wise, so resigning ourselves to the idea that StM was here to stay for now really was just being realistic about it. The potential issues StM could bring with it were talked about endlessly, and especially during the beta Blizzard got feedback (both public and behind the scenes) time and time again that StM & the 100 row were creating an unhealthy situation for shadow. If not right away, then it would do so in the future. To sum it up: StM isn't going to benefit the spec in the long run, so please do something about it before it's too late. Unfortunately, Blizzard relied on its internal QA too much and didn't listen to the community (including the people from H2P). It wasn't until the first week of Emerald Nightmare opening that Blizzard realized just how bad its own QA represented how good StM was, and the initial infamous hotfix notes were the result of that. At that point, Blizzard did start listening to the community (again, including the people from H2P) and they decided to revert the changes.

The way you're trying to portray H2P as the lap dog of Blizzard that is absolutely in love with StM is just wrong, Kilee. There are also plenty 'top priests' that were frustrated with how Blizzard handled StM, so not sure why you're generalizing or how you even think that you know that there were top priests that only cared about being OP instead of caring about the spec and its future. You just come across as a bitter old man at this point.

[Kilee25]

Regardless of what you think of me, your response is the first sensible counterpoint and explanation for the events that lead to StM that I have seen anywhere. Thank you for an honest answer that actually makes sense. I accept your point of view, and admit that I am wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Follow up question. If we accept your version of events, why do you think Blizzard went through with the current design anyway? I have a theory as to why (which I've stated in a another thread a while back but will refrain from posting for now). I am curious why you feel that they would push such a problematic talent through with seeming disregard for community feedback.

[Nyel]

Okay, today I found time to download the PTR and test the Shadow changes and I must say... why oh why. Shadow just feels incredibly bad on the PTR. Not only our playstyle is very slow, our overall DPS output has been crippled. On my 863 Shadow Priest I lost ~ 25% damage. On PTR I'm dealing 75% of the damage I deal right now on the live server.

- DoT's falling of pretty often
- Void Bolt increasing DoT duration by 3 seconds (rather something like 1.5 due to the flight time of the projectile)
- Lingering Insanity as a talent is a huge let down, the entire gameplay feels horrible on the PTR due to low haste
- Mind Spike doesn't feel that bad but the damage is a let down. For purging our DoTs from the target it needs a damage increase by at least 20-30% (it's something like 5% of overall damage in a ST rotation). Then I would consider it as a nice reminiscence to CoP playstyle

The legendary cloak seems to be pretty nice (but inferior compared to the belt). I got 15 procs within a 6 minute fight which resulted in 6% overall damage (funny though that my trinket - Plaguehive 855 - results in 7% overall damage so an 855 trinket proc is better than a 910 legendary proc).

Another note: the legendary belt is incredibly good. Playing with the belt and Shadowy Insights feels pretty nice and the overall gameplay flow is great. It doubles the damage output of Mind Blast and brings it to whopping 25-28% of overall damage (without belt ~ 12-15%).

[Baelic]

The notion that StM is just completely bad for the spec and needs to go away is a relatively new thing. During Alpha & Beta most of the loudest feedback was overly positive. StM was hailed as "the most interesting ranged caster ability ever." There were a handful of long posts expressing concerns that it wasn't balancable, but these got drowned out by the cries of "something new" and "not boring."

Moreover, I would say that most of the negative feedback about spriests in general seem to be spurring from this community specifically. I don't see similar thoughts being voiced on H2P for instance. The core voice over there is primarily, "We're fine, learn to play and practice harder. Get out of the class if it's too hard for you." Personally, I think there's a fairly large, but publicly silent group that feels this way about spriests. They (still) feel that StM is the best thing that ever happened to the game.

I could probably take that one step further. People feel like they HAVE to pigeonhole themselves into one given set of talents, rather than using what would be best for that given encounter, that if something changes to that pigeonhole they freak the fuck out like cranky children. Now to be fair this is a perfect-world type argument but I'd wager that the current PTR talent set is closer to that mark than on live.

-snip-

The question becomes, how much of that change in damage is from the class changes or are from the changes to secondary stats? A little late to be making apples-to-apples comparisons right now and best to wait until the PTR is more mature.

[Nyel]

The question becomes, how much of that change in damage is from the class changes or are from the changes to secondary stats? A little late to be making apples-to-apples comparisons right now and best to wait until the PTR is more mature.

That's the right question. I did not want to say that I lost ~ 25% damage only because of the Shadow Priest nerfs. It's just the overall effect on the PTR right now, nerfs and stat changes combined - and that's pretty much in the end, isn't it?

(another thing, Void Torrent on the PTR seems to be bugged - it did not stop the Insanity drain a few hours ago).

[Deleted]

You know, the problem has 2 sides...
Having 25% DPS(just tossing said number) loss due to various factors (SP nerfs/stast nerfs etc.) is one thing...
ANother thing is how much other class/specs got buffed/nerfed ...
For the moment i'd prefer our spec to keep its flow, while my major problem is that they may get it more clunky...
We know they can tune numbers accordingly...if they want to..

[Vargur]

I want more direct burst damage, make us viable for low HP stuff that other classes nuke easily.
I want StM gone.
I want VB to stay as it is, otherwise it's pretty pointless to use.
I want Void Torrent castable while moving and not in Voidform. As far as I know, it's the only artifact ability that you can't simply use off the bat. And it's easily interruptable since you have to stay still.
I want the shadowform toggle gone. It's pointless. Not to mention still buggy. Give the fashionistas glyphs, if they really want it off.

[Nyel]

I want Void Torrent castable while moving and not in Voidform. As far as I know, it's the only artifact ability that you can't simply use off the bat. And it's easily interruptable since you have to stay still.

That's another thing I never understood. Void Torrent - "okay" damage, stops insanity drain but 4sec channel and 1min CD? I'd rather have it as a 4sec instant DoT on the enemy, the channel is pretty annoying in many situations.

[KaPe]

That's another thing I never understood. Void Torrent - "okay" damage, stops insanity drain but 4sec channel and 1min CD? I'd rather have it as a 4sec instant DoT on the enemy, the channel is pretty annoying in many situations.

It's another one of those things that have to be weak in order to keep StM "balanced". 4 seconds at high stacks is a decent amount of damage, as well as a chance of insanity generators to cool down and perhaps few Apparitions to proc. If you use it for any other purpose, it's just "okayish".

[Deleted]

That's another thing I never understood. Void Torrent - "okay" damage, stops insanity drain but 4sec channel and 1min CD? I'd rather have it as a 4sec instant DoT on the enemy, the channel is pretty annoying in many situations.

Making it a DoT based CD would be nice.

Void Torrent: Combines your Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch into a new DoT called Void Torrent. Deals SW:P and Vampiric Touches combined damage * 1.25 over 8 seconds. You can reapply SW:P and VT to refresh the duration by 2 seconds per application up to a max of 8 seconds. Isn't removed by Mind Spike.

or something along those lines.

[Gorsameth]

Void Torrent as a channel allows it to be used to stop drain when you cant hit the boss for a few seconds, Ursoc charge for example.

Dont see a need to change it.

[Krazzorx]

Ele's stomkeeper would be similar as well. So it's not like it's the only artifact ability that does no damage when you cast it.

[Velthari]

I would like to also add that the Shadow 4 set works really nice with LotV talent as you have this play style where your constantly going in and out of Voidform and with the buffs to insanity generation it was much much easier to generate the insanity needed to get into Voidform and get about 40 stacks of insanity, that being said i think Bliz is nerfing Spriest to force the shadow priest 4 set and a LotV play style.