Doubts about rogue

[Wenoxar]

Hi

I'm mage main. I got this low ilvl rogue alt with high artifact knowledge. I figured it's time to start gearing it up to some 880ish level.

This might sound quite cheap but: I have no idea which spec to choose. There are too much information about rogue on this forums to put it altogether, that's why I'm asking for help.

In prepatch I had high ilvl geared assa rogue and I really enjoyed old Exsanguinate mechanics (before nerf x time ago). I lvled up and did WQs with Outlaw so far. I really enjoy Outlaw but I guess I can enjoy everything.

Honestly, all I care about is numbers. Based on warcraftlogs I can guess that subtlety/assa outperforms Outlaw on ST while Outlaw is the best for AoE. But how good are assa/sub in m+s? It seems weak for assa that his ramp up time is so slow, he's probably weak in low m+s?

Well... can you just please tell me which spec to choose for PvE raiding/low m+/high m+ perpectives? Can you somehow convince me?

Any help greatly appreciated, really. Thank you

[Deleted]

I suggest Assa
straight forward spec, with really fast artifact path progress. High sustain dmg, decent burst, easy to get into.

in low m+ you want to go with exsang, for high m+ you go with AP - DP for trash fights, AP for boss fights.
3cp Rupture is way to go for trash packs, with FoK spam.

[Wenoxar]

Why 3cp rupture instead of 6cp? @Slejhy Thank you for your answer

More 'feedback' appreciated

[Twinkelle]

Why 3cp rupture instead of 6cp? @Slejhy Thank you for your answer

More 'feedback' appreciated

Yeah. 6CP would take too long to set up. You want the bleeds up so you can get that sweet energy return, not necessarily the damage.

Then you just FoK and fish for BoT procs, while making sure you maintain your bleeds.

[Nikkaszal]

Why 3cp rupture instead of 6cp? @Slejhy Thank you for your answer

More 'feedback' appreciated

For AoE, the Rups are for boosting your energy gen, not for their damage. A 3-4CP Rup on 4 targets or so will keep your energy ticking high for FoK-Envenom spam

[kaaoru]

After playing both specs, I think you'll have a much easier time with assassination, specially if you dont have the sub boots.

[Nibren]

Sub is really only viable with the boots, Assass is well rounded in ST and 3 Target cleave, after that it's just fishing for Poison bomb procs in dungeons, and multi rupturing and spamming envenom. Outlaw isn't very consistent for bosses as you can often get unlucky and single roll multiple times, but you do jump in dps if you do ever get a 6 roll.

[Mamercus]

Outlaw has great sustained and burst AoE that scales with the number of adds, but is extremely weak single target. Can become acceptable single target with the right legendaries.

In some situations Outlaw shits the bed when you really need good rolls (big trash pack) and don't get them. It is also bad for most raid encounters except maybe Helya and Ilgynoth.

Sin has great sustained and burst single target and bad to excellent AoE depending on RNG (poison bomb procs).

[Tyrannica]

Assassin is entirely a raid spec, since the ST is that high and dots work on high hp targets simply better.(revamp time)

Mutlibleeds in mythic+ is just cumbersome i wonder what the class designers had smoked there, actually a new FoK with combo points that causes all targets to bleed in 1 go, would have made more sense at least at higher mythic+.

Outlaw is better suited for low mythic+ and if you don't have any BIS legs.

I would say just stick to SIN and do only raids since its just a twink.

Wouldn't bother with sub right now, maybe later, after some more changes that, i hope will certainly come.

The class does not feel finished at all, the radical changes(mostly nerfs, though) everywhere in each spec since legion launch kinda speak for themselves.

[Wenoxar]

Yeah I chose assa rogue, so far cleared only EN HC on this alt. But I got two questions to experienced assas if u dont mind

1. Should I use 2-4cp Envenom or 5-6cp Envenom? 2-4cp Enve makes sense to me to make bigger uptime on EP?

2. Vendetta is 1.5min CD, Vanish is 2min CD. It doesn't line up very well besides opener. Is it okay to just use these CDs on cooldown rather than delaying? I realize it entirely depends on fight length, sometimes it might be work to delay sometimes not, but just overall?

[Deleted]

Yeah I chose assa rogue, so far cleared only EN HC on this alt. But I got two questions to experienced assas if u dont mind

1. Should I use 2-4cp Envenom or 5-6cp Envenom? 2-4cp Enve makes sense to me to make bigger uptime on EP?

2. Vendetta is 1.5min CD, Vanish is 2min CD. It doesn't line up very well besides opener. Is it okay to just use these CDs on cooldown rather than delaying? I realize it entirely depends on fight length, sometimes it might be work to delay sometimes not, but just overall?

4-6cp is better, only really want 100% uptime on EP during CD's.

Use Vendetta on CD unless you need to burst something within the next 15 seconds or so, save Vanish for when your CD's all line up.

[Tengokuq]

I'd say Assassination is the way to go. On mythics+, I average 600-800k dps trash 4-6 mobs, single is above 400k. My ilvl is 874 with the spheuz ring and dreadlocks back. Assassination is really strong and have the potential to outdps outlaw in both scenarios, AoE and ST

[kilua]

Hi

I'm mage main. I got this low ilvl rogue alt with high artifact knowledge. I figured it's time to start gearing it up to some 880ish level.

This might sound quite cheap but: I have no idea which spec to choose. There are too much information about rogue on this forums to put it altogether, that's why I'm asking for help.

In prepatch I had high ilvl geared assa rogue and I really enjoyed old Exsanguinate mechanics (before nerf x time ago). I lvled up and did WQs with Outlaw so far. I really enjoy Outlaw but I guess I can enjoy everything.

Honestly, all I care about is numbers. Based on warcraftlogs I can guess that subtlety/assa outperforms Outlaw on ST while Outlaw is the best for AoE. But how good are assa/sub in m+s? It seems weak for assa that his ramp up time is so slow, he's probably weak in low m+s?

Well... can you just please tell me which spec to choose for PvE raiding/low m+/high m+ perpectives? Can you somehow convince me?

Any help greatly appreciated, really. Thank you

play what ever u like but sub getting nerf alot

[Deleted]

Outlaw is the best spec to begin with until you have some gear and ap. The best overall performance for any aspect of the game has assassination at the moment (incl nighthold), which is also extremely powerful in the whole pve content (raid and m+). Of course, good gear is mandatory for awesome performances, so it would be very wise to set the loot spec to assassination until you have 2 very powerful legs on that spec.

Other than my fellow rogues here in this forum, the performance of a good geared assassination rogue is pretty awesome in m+ dungeons. There is absolutely no reason to collect two sets of gear/legs for assa and outlaw, just to follow an non-existent idea.

[Wenoxar]

I am so glad I chose assassination. I'm only ilvl 865 at the moment but I'm pulling top99% percentile in my ilvl in EN. It's kinda motivating. The rotation is so slow yet so smooth. It's difficult to describe how good I feel about this spec.

The only problem for me for now is that my DPS on AoE (let's say 5 targets) is lower than my DPS on Single Target. While I can sustain ~400k DPS on single target for long period of time like 5 minutes, I cannot sustain that on AoE. In dungeons on trash packs I can pull out even 200k

But the spec is great. Love it

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Got a question to experienced rogues. Didn't want to make a new thread so I'll just post here.

Just dropped legendary wrists, is there any preferable talent build for these wrists? Because I'm currently using Elaborate Planning / Ago Poison for pretty much everything, is it ok?

[Deleted]

Outlaw has great sustained and burst AoE that scales with the number of adds, but is extremely weak single target. Can become acceptable single target with the right legendaries.

In some situations Outlaw shits the bed when you really need good rolls (big trash pack) and don't get them. It is also bad for most raid encounters except maybe Helya and Ilgynoth.

Sin has great sustained and burst single target and bad to excellent AoE depending on RNG (poison bomb procs).

I'm all for hating on outlaw but there is no reason to outright lie.

Outlaw is very competitive with the other two specs for both ST and AoE. It outshines both if you get the right rolls. You can hate RtB all you want(i know i do) but there is no reason to pretend like the spec is bad

- - - Updated - - -

I am so glad I chose assassination. I'm only ilvl 865 at the moment but I'm pulling top99% percentile in my ilvl in EN. It's kinda motivating. The rotation is so slow yet so smooth. It's difficult to describe how good I feel about this spec.

The only problem for me for now is that my DPS on AoE (let's say 5 targets) is lower than my DPS on Single Target. While I can sustain ~400k DPS on single target for long period of time like 5 minutes, I cannot sustain that on AoE. In dungeons on trash packs I can pull out even 200k

But the spec is great. Love it

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Got a question to experienced rogues. Didn't want to make a new thread so I'll just post here.

Just dropped legendary wrists, is there any preferable talent build for these wrists? Because I'm currently using Elaborate Planning / Ago Poison for pretty much everything, is it ok?

865 and you can sustain 400k dps? Mind sharing some logs of that?

[Deleted]

I tried some different specs for a few hours:

MP/Vigor/Alacrity: 430k on average
MP/Vigor/AP: 415k on average
EP/EX/DFA: 420k on average

against the classic
EP/EX: 435k on average
EP/AP: 445k on average

unbuffed on the training boss dummy for 60min per spec.

The MP/Vigor/Alacrity spec seems very interesting. The energy reg is high enough to grant an uptime of 8-10% SoT by >90%. It is not necessary to finish within the 5sec timeframe exactly, but for min/maxing it is quite helpful. With envenom up, nearly each hit proccs poison, so haste is getting slightly stronger.

[Wenoxar]

I'm all for hating on outlaw but there is no reason to outright lie.

Outlaw is very competitive with the other two specs for both ST and AoE. It outshines both if you get the right rolls. You can hate RtB all you want(i know i do) but there is no reason to pretend like the spec is bad

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865 and you can sustain 400k dps? Mind sharing some logs of that?

I will send you logs on Wednesday IF my guild will decide to bring this alt to EN Mythic. Did 560k dps on Wrath of Azshara in EoA+12 today, fight length was around 2min. Sweet legendary could proc for entire fight :P

Overall I'm super happy with assa

Even started doing relatively strong AoE dps instead of 100-200k because I swap Agonizing poison to Deadly poison for trash in m+, and didn't do it before that's why I struggled with aoe dps.

[RobertMugabe]

If you really want numbers and raid then go for Assa.

The thing with Assa is simply that it's DPS is more consistent than Outlaw, but I personally do not like this specc anymore (played Assa cata-mid wod). The thing is that you have to time it almost perfectly, you can easily have a lot of downtime, you also have to ramp up first and multi-dotting with a finisher for AOE dmg is imho bad game design and it still isn't really good (the MAIN reason I don't play this specc mainly). It does get quite awesome though with some legendaries, especially the FoK one.

If you do not care purely about numbers(imho you should not only let the healers do the job), then I'd suggest you take Outlaw. It has the best utility and survivability of all these speccs by far(blind and gouge in particular get way to underestimated), which makes it imho ALWAYS the better choice in mythic+(in raids this part doesn't matter) (i also take the Crimson Vial buff talent, which gives me insane self heal), also the AOE dmg... the only time really I'd take assa for a mythic+ dungeon is when I have an affix like raging.
This forum seems largely to disagree with me, but the ONLY assa rogue I've seen who did good AOE dmg (this was in a raid, not m+ btw.) was one with Insignia and the FoK legi, otherwise every single one I've seen has been horrible compared to my outlaw dps (even though they had rupture up on 2-3 targets).

That being said, I always play Outlaw in mythic+ and play Assa only on pure ST raid bosses (incl. Xavius)

[Sae]

This forum seems largely to disagree with me, but the ONLY assa rogue I've seen who did good AOE dmg (this was in a raid, not m+ btw.) was one with Insignia and the FoK legi, otherwise every single one I've seen has been horrible compared to my outlaw dps (even though they had rupture up on 2-3 targets).

There are very few (if any) situations in EN where Assassination can properly set up its AoE to compete with a bursty AoE spec like Outlaw. Even on Mythic, trash dies way too quickly, same with Il'gynoth blobs. This comparison is like saying Shadow Priest has terrible single target because you were fighting a heroic dungeon boss who died in 20 seconds, and the priest couldn't keep up with the Arms warrior and Fire mage.

Do some high level M+ (12 or higher) with Assassination; if the trash lives for more than a few moments, you can pull some pretty impressive AoE numbers, especially with a few BoT procs.