Legion is a grind because...

[kary]

No, my complaint is that there are NO CAPS to things like AP and that you get raid-equivalent gear from outside raids, and that you get Best in Slot items through SHEER LUCK, which forces raiders that care about progression into endless grinds.

Simple, eh?

So your complaint is that you lack self control?
I mean, I'm 100% sure you aren't raiding at any sort of competitive level, so you're just an addict at this point.

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Well, there are soft caps in AP where it's just not worth it anymore to bother... at least not until the next patch drops.

I don't see the problem of getting raid equivalent gear from equally hard (and in same cases significantly tougher) 5 man Mythic+ content. Which isn't a grind, but merely just an alternative kind of content. Alternative content actually mean there's more options for how to gear and thus less of a singular repetitive grind.

The legendary system... okay, you have a valid point there. That is a grindy mess.

Legendary system isn't bad at all, I got 2 legendaries in 3 days from doing absolutely nothing. And again, unless you're at the bleeding edge of progress, you having a legendary doesn't make a difference.

[Thage]

I never really know what to say to people who confuse doing stuff that they really don't have to do with being grindy. I'm doing fine and not grinding anything. I play when I like, do what I like and stuff moves along. If you are being forced to maintain a lot of alts by a guild for raiding purposes, personally I'd look for another guild. If you enjoy playing alts then the complaint seems to be they'll have something to do.

None of it makes any sense at all if you approach the game with your head screwed onto your shoulders.

Play. Have fun. Don't take it all so seriously.

This. At this point, most of the threads boil down to players wanting Blizz to save them from themselves, but that's how we get expansions like WoD, where very little outside raiding is rewarding even for non-raiders, which led to them quitting in droves before the expansion's's first patch hit. Other than how punishing the AP grind can be on alts (which will soon be greatly reduced by the one-two punch of being able to use surplus Blood of Sargeras on your main to send them Order Hall resources, and using Order Hall resources to buy Artifact Knowledge boosts up to level 20, which will greatly accelerate your accumulation rate), a lot of these complaints seem to come from players who got used to enjoying the benefits of a hardcore playstyle without actually being hardcore players in WoD, thanks to the aforementioned extremely top-heavy reward structure unmatched by any other point in the game's life cycle.

[Ghrog]

So your complaint is that you lack self control?
I mean, I'm 100% sure you aren't raiding at any sort of competitive level, so you're just an addict at this point.

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Legendary system isn't bad at all, I got 2 legendaries in 3 days from doing absolutely nothing. And again, unless you're at the bleeding edge of progress, you having a legendary doesn't make a difference.

Ehhh. I mean, on my Shaman, I do just fine, I either top meters or am top 3, even though the Legendary I got is essentially just a stat stick.

But the method for getting them definitely could use some kind of refining.

The reason I don't usually take Blizz to task for it is that I don't really have an answer for how to make it better... Maybe a drop from a raid boss that starts a quest chain based around the individual legendary... but even that has some serious potential to be a PITA from both a player and developer standpoint. Every alternative I hear has similar issues that I have been able to notice.

Since pretty much nearly every raid I have been with is set to individual loot... maybe set it up so each legendary is dropped by a specific boss as a rare drop that adds bad luck protection to farming that specific boss. Maybe do the same thing for Mythic+ (or regular mythic dungeon) content (with a lower drop rate since they can be farmed more easily) and then a catch all, unfarmable setup for Emmisary Caches that also includes bad luck protection but you can't farm a specific drop. (gotta leave some bonus for farming tougher group content)... not perfect, but a small improvement maybe?

[kary]

Ehhh. I mean, on my Shaman, I do just fine, I either top meters or am top 3, even though the Legendary I got is essentially just a stat stick.

But the method for getting them definitely could use some kind of refining.

The reason I don't usually take Blizz to task for it is that I don't really have an answer for how to make it better... Maybe a drop from a raid boss that starts a quest chain based around the individual legendary... but even that has some serious potential to be a PITA from both a player and developer standpoint. Every alternative I hear has similar issues that I have been able to notice.

Honestly the way how it is right now is fine. I abhor the whole "expansion long questline" bullshit because that changes legendary items from something rare and coveted to "lol u dont have ur ring? scrub"
Cloak/ring were awful systems. Shadowmourne/Valanyr weren't much better. Legendaries can't be welfare items that everyone gets, they might as well be purples at that point. And I know, yes people will want that, to just be gifted everything in game. But as it stands, I like the current implementation of legendaries and I have absolutely no complaints.


Rather, it's a playerbase issue more than an implementation issue. You don't have to have everything, everything doesn't need to be an upgrade for you, etc.

[Ham on Rye]

Well yeah MMOs are grindy but Legion is the grindiest WoW have ever been.

Vanilla would like a word with you.

[Bathory]

MMOs are grinds. Welcome!

[Ghrog]

Honestly the way how it is right now is fine. I abhor the whole "expansion long questline" bullshit because that changes legendary items from something rare and coveted to "lol u dont have ur ring? scrub"
Cloak/ring were awful systems. Shadowmourne/Valanyr weren't much better. Legendaries can't be welfare items that everyone gets, they might as well be purples at that point. And I know, yes people will want that, to just be gifted everything in game. But as it stands, I like the current implementation of legendaries and I have absolutely no complaints.


Rather, it's a playerbase issue more than an implementation issue. You don't have to have everything, everything doesn't need to be an upgrade for you, etc.

I edited my last comment to add in an idea... I'm curious what your take on it is.

[Lime]

The reason Rose Tinted Goggles is so often used is because so many people fall prey to it. This being one of those many cases. If the shoe fits...

Did I say that LFR didn't exist in Cata? I didn't see that. I'm talking about the total package of LFR and Mythic+.

Some people (Not you, this part of the complaint is about others) bitch about Mythic+ because it's "so easy to get raid level gear" but then at the same time complain that it's so hard to get their Alts geared up.

I'm sorry, which is it?

Again, as somebody that leveled up several Alts in TBC, Wrath, Cata, and Legion. Legion has been far and away the easiest one. If I wanted to, this weekend I'd have both my raid-level alts in 860+ Gear and good to go for heroics and some mythic raiding content.

The ONLY valid complaint is AP. And again that issue which already is minor, is about to become a huge non-issue in 7.1.5

In what world is the Wrath model less alt friendly in terms of catchup compared to Legion?

- Wrath: 80 -> Normal Dungeons (if not fully geared) -> Heroic Dungeons w/ badge gear as a non-RNG alternative -> Normal Raids -> Hardmode/Heroic Raids
- Legion: 110 -> Normal Dungeons (if not fully geared) -> Heroic Dungeons -> Mythic/LFR -> Mythic+/Normal Raids -> Heroic Raids -> Mythic Raids
(And that's without the extra progression from ToV as one-off raids aren't the standard.)

Then you add the fact that you need certain traits from your Artifact. Then you also add the fact the we have 1-2 more gear slots we have to get to catch up (Artifact Relics, the replacement to weapon drops).

Your fallback is the same old, "Well, in Legion, I can have an alt almost caught up to a casual level if I want to", but the same thing applies to Wrath and Cata.

There are more paths you can choose this time around, which I even stated, but the fact is, it still takes longer to catch up now than it did in Wrath.

And just to add the typical boosted method for both expansions:

Wrath: 80 -> Heroics -> Normal Raids -> Heroic Raids
Legion: 110 -> Mythic low keystone spam -> Normal Raids -> Heroic Raids -> Mythic Raids

[Banquetto]

Two words: Hydraxian Waterlords.

Not really a grind. You ran Molten Core each week - your rep went up. There wasn't anything you could do, iirc, to speed it up. And the only thing that would slow it down was missing your guild's weekly MC raid.

[Otaka]

'member classic?
'member how you needed to grind crusader enchantment which was dropped only by ~5 mobs in the whole game?
'member how you needed to grind reputation to be able to get to naxxramas without an exorbital ammount of money needed?
'member how you needed to go out and kill metric fucktons of something for reputation in general, due to the lack of quests, and the nonexistence of daily quests?
'member how you needed to grind up the last few levels due to the lack of actually working quests you didn't need a whole group for?

'member TBC?
'member how you needed to grind reputation to be able to do heroic dungeons to be able to do karazhan with every single character?

Classic had more depth to its grinding.
You werent just killing critters that did no harm to you.. you grinded mobs that actually could kill you if you A: run out of mana or B: started fight in low hp.
All the grinding in legion and most recent expansions is empty and bland... sure it works the same way but its just too damn easy, so easy that might aswell not waste time on it. The reward isnt worth the minuscule effort you have to dedicate.

Grinding in vanilla was far more fun, believe it or not!

[kary]

I edited my last comment to add in an idea... I'm curious what your take on it is.

I mean, it's not my particular cup of tea, because the best legendary combo will always be mathed out and people will always go for them. Yeah it prob sucks to get a prydaz or a xavaric's but (imo) the game needs a bit of randomness

[Thimagryn]

Not really a grind. You ran Molten Core each week - your rep went up. There wasn't anything you could do, iirc, to speed it up. And the only thing that would slow it down was missing your guild's weekly MC raid.

In retrospect, Molten core itself is a grind.

[Deleted]

*cough*

Have you played classic?

Yes I have, and its not the same. I would say Legion is grinder and I played hardcore vanilla, killed everything except Sapp & KT.

[Deleted]

'member classic?
'member how you needed to grind crusader enchantment which was dropped only by ~5 mobs in the whole game?
'member how you needed to grind reputation to be able to get to naxxramas without an exorbital ammount of money needed?
'member how you needed to go out and kill metric fucktons of something for reputation in general, due to the lack of quests, and the nonexistence of daily quests?
'member how you needed to grind up the last few levels due to the lack of actually working quests you didn't need a whole group for?

'member TBC?
'member how you needed to grind reputation to be able to do heroic dungeons to be able to do karazhan with every single character?

73 exalted at last count & still agree with the OP, thats why i quit.

[kary]

This posts screams of bleeding edge ignorance and some lame flamebaiting attempt on top.

But hey, I recognize the name, one of those LFR/casual constant defenders.

It makes sense now.

You're happy cause you get free shit without having to be good. Yup.

Actually you got it the other way around, I detest the lfr baddies. But yeah sure. Post history is there as usual.

Anyway, if you aren't good, your guild is shit and your progression is non existent, why are you playing all day to get legendaries when they won't make you/your guild progress? The issues that would be keeping you back won't be throughput but pebcak.

[Ghrog]

Your fallback is the same old, "Well, in Legion, I can have an alt almost caught up to a casual level if I want to", but the same thing applies to Wrath and Cata.

Exactly! The amount of effort required is almost the same, only with Mythic+ it's easier to get to that upper tier of gear.

Just because there are more steps doesn't mean there's more work, only more variety which equals less of a grind and a fresher more interesting experience.

It's becoming obvious that no matter how much personal experience I provide and no matter how much evidence I provide, you refuse to listen and keep bringing up points that I have refuted, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Deleted]

'member classic?
'member how you needed to grind crusader enchantment which was dropped only by ~5 mobs in the whole game?
'member how you needed to grind reputation to be able to get to naxxramas without an exorbital ammount of money needed?
'member how you needed to go out and kill metric fucktons of something for reputation in general, due to the lack of quests, and the nonexistence of daily quests?
'member how you needed to grind up the last few levels due to the lack of actually working quests you didn't need a whole group for?

'member TBC?
'member how you needed to grind reputation to be able to do heroic dungeons to be able to do karazhan with every single character?

Yeah but none of those are things you NEED (except the attunements, I did those) to be grinding all the time. Like if you stop grinding AP on your main you fall behind, you will NEVER get to the same AP on an alt or off spec if someone just play 1 character. Like in vanilla when you got the drop, you had it.

In vanilla, if you played, got raid gear and had done your raid for the week. You could lvl an alt and gear it while you are on down time with your main. But you NEVER HAVE downtime in legion. You can get upgrade all over the place, you can farm AP 24/7. Whats the problem to see Legion is grindier and very alt unfriendly compared to before?

[tikcol]

The vanilla grind was the perfect kind of grind. This new kind of grind is so boring..

I also agree the game should move forward, forward doesn't mean it should diverge from the classic experience though. And that is something people forget.

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In retrospect, Molten core itself is a grind.

Molten Core was actually the kind of grind I wouldn't mind doing for the rest of my life

[BananaHandsB]

I think you may have a nasty case of rose tinted goggles there my friend.

In both of those expansions, there wasn't awesome catch up tools like Mythic+ and LFR that allowed you to gear up to raid quality gear with the same speed that there is now.

I just shake my head at statements like this. That's part of what makes the game less alt-friendly. Previously, you could just get dungeon/crafted gear and be considered ready to start raiding. Now you have all these other things you can do, raid ready requirements have risen dramatically and as a result it takes a lot more grinding to get raid ready. And with the endless grind of titanforged pieces, better legendaries, mythic 10+ gear and so on, raid requirements increase every day as the population continues to gear rather than the "raid ready" requirement staying relatively static due to hitting a gear wall without actually raiding.

[tikcol]

Yes I have, and its not the same. I would say Legion is grinder and I played hardcore vanilla, killed everything except Sapp & KT.

I agree. Somewhat. I just think that the legion grind is boring