Why Mythic Raid restrictions but not Mythic+ Dungeons?

[WhatIsLegion]

I don't think it's "gearing up" if the gear you can get from mythic+ dungeons is better than what you can get in a raid.

Asmongold just released a video talking about this problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhvEY6hDdUs

OP has a good point. Why restrict raids when you can farm +10 and get better gear?

Never link an Asmongold video about topics like this, he's so incredibly biased when it comes to it. He wants the game be around no life high end content so he can always be above everyone. He doesn't like that more people can be as geared as him now.


There's no problem with Mythic+ outside of affixes lasting an entire week. M+ will keep more players playing the game, put a time limit on that and watch people start to quit.

[Tradu]

Loot is more tricky to work with since there is no cap on it. I think dropped it to 1 loot per box and making the weekly box give 2-3 items would be the change needed. This way there is still some bonus for no life people, like me, but there isn't a "OMG NEED TO RUN M+ FOR UPGRADES!" mentality in the higher end guilds. The 2-3 in the weekly box would make it so people feel more an urge to push higher rather than just farming low end ones and hoping for TF/WF items. They could drop the ilvl of the weekly box to compensate for more items. Maybe like 5-10 tops, not even sure its needed since its random loot.

People haven't been doing M+ for gear(other than a +12 each week for the box) for a while now, it's all about the insane AP/hour.

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The entire point of split raids is to bypass lockouts with throwaway alts. EN raid gear was pretty bad (most trinkets awful at launch, no tier sets) but Nighthold won't have that same problem so split run all day every day will be king again.

You're still limited by amount of characters, that limit doesn't exist in M+.

[cFortyfive]

You're still limited by amount of characters, that limit doesn't exist in M+.

Given that's an activity your whole guild has to partake to make it somewhat efficient you are way more gated by time anyway not even mentioning you have to make room as well to find legendaries on a char that makes sense which means more mythic +.

[Echocho]

The highest Mythic+ award the same iLvl loot as heroic raids and have no loot lockout hence every raid difficulty below mythic shouldn't have loot lockouts either.

[shaunika123]

Actually a slight bit sad to clinch so hard to such a redundant argument. Reality is scheduling is a very limiting factor for raids whereas availability of mythic+ groups is close to unlimited.

i never said it wasnt in fact i verbatum said it is a huge limiting factor, all i said was that it wasnt enforced by blizzard, whereas OP wanted it to be for mythic+

Yes 25m raiding was very much so on its way out before Blizzard saved the format by making it 20m only and the reward scheme was certainly a factor there.

and yet there were a lot of 25 man guilds and as i said 10man was a much more tantalizing alternative to 25man than mythic+ is to mythic raids, since it was the same raid just with less hassle due to scheduling/recruitment, mythic+ is entirely different

No idea what high level means to you but I see nothing wrong with doing a couple 12s these days. They actually provide decent ilvl gear and with the right affixes and given the right instances they aren't even too annoying.

12 is nowhere near close to mythic raid difficulty, i do them every week on 2 characters
and as i said, most people only do a "couple" they dont farm themselves dry on 12s, the unlimited aspect of mythic+ only comes from lower level keys, which have nothing in common with mythic raiding, you do that mostly for AP farm not for gearing or the challenge

I am not someone lying to myself like sadly enough so many others claiming I only was into raiding for the challenge. There is little to no reward for currently even trying to progress helya and it clearly shows. It's not even a competition I would have been worlds better off just boosting keys on chimp difficulty instead of progressing any bosses requiring more than 20 pulls not even mentioning how terrible tov is as a raid.

well a: what else is there BUT to progress helya? shes the last boss, might as well progress on her and killing that bitch will be reward enough when it finally happens, if you dont like overcoming a huge challenge then dont do it, but that's what i do it for, there are no huge nerdscream videos of people doing 15+. but listen to helya kills

plus i dont know what you're on but ToV is a great raid imho, odyn and helya are both fun bosses(altough odyn could stand to be a little shorter) and guarm is a decent enough spin on the common patchwerk fight

if you draw the line at 20 pulls then basically every single mythic boss in the game outside a few are not worth it for you? well then you're not the target audience of mythic raids

[Svisalith]

People haven't been doing M+ for gear(other than a +12 each week for the box) for a while now, it's all about the insane AP/hour.

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You're still limited by amount of characters, that limit doesn't exist in M+.

You can make a huge amount of characters, though, you can make 6 chars each for example and clear heroic/normal 12 times in 2-3 days for tier sets.

Mythic+ does require you to bring other people for keystones

[Tradu]

You can make a huge amount of characters, though, you can make 6 chars each for example and clear heroic/normal 12 times in 2-3 days for tier sets.

Mythic+ does require you to bring other people for keystones

You can, but you also need to get them decently geared, which is time not going into spamming M+. And people seriously overestimate tier sets(and the ilevel gap between normal and what people already have). Sure, some are good, but then there's some like Feral that are a DPS loss to use.

There's an effectively infinite supply of keystones in the group finder, as well as each alt giving you like 2-3 dungeons for the 4 mains in your group.

[Svisalith]

You can, but you also need to get them decently geared, which is time not going into spamming M+. And people seriously overestimate tier sets. Sure, some are good, but then there's some like Feral that are a DPS loss to use.

There's an effectively infinite supply of keystones in the group finder, as well as each alt giving you like 2-3 dungeons for the 4 mains in your group.

And yet all of the top guilds are doing it rather than mythic+ farming in the same time. Vast majority of the top 200 guilds will not even look at an application unless you have multiple main characters for split running

[Coldvibes]

All of these posts come from currently active raiders....

There's a ton of players who don't enjoy the fact that we're bound to a set schedule for raiding but we still want to do the hardest content possible that isn't raiding/pvp aka constantly pushing above 12 and beyond every week. So you're just going to fuck us in the ass too?

[Deleted]

Its far away from the complexity of some Mythic raid bosses.

One try on a Mythic+ Dungeons takes 30 - 45 minutes. One boss try in mythic raid takes 5 - 10 minutes, often less.

I have yet to see mythic raid bosses that last more then 30 minutes on average. I think he highest known enrage timer is Valithria Dreamwlker with 36 minutes hard enrage, and that one could never be met anyways, you were killed be the soft enrage loooong before that.

M+ requires quite some sill. Yes, the individual boss fights do not have the same amount of mechanics, but on M +10 and higher you need perfect execution for more then 30 minutes. Thats not something Mythic raiding offers.

I don#t want to say its more difficult, but I don#t thinks it easier either.

[Tradu]

And yet all of the top guilds are doing it rather than mythic+ farming in the same time. Vast majority of the top 200 guilds will not even look at an application unless you have multiple main characters for split running

Yes, they do their splits during heroic/normal week, that's the evenings of that week gone at most. Then they're locked out from doing more. That's not the case with M+, you just keep running that shit. During mythic week for EN, the guilds that didn't do splits were the ones that won the race(not sure about ToV)
And regardless, this isn't just about top guilds. It's about how M+ is massively overrewarding and doesn't require levelling more characters, as well as being able to do it from when you log on until you log out with no kind of lockout or cap on it. You know, the things that affect more than just the top guilds.

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One try on a Mythic+ Dungeons takes 30 - 45 minutes. One boss try in mythic raid takes 5 - 10 minutes, often less.

I have yet to see mythic raid bosses that last more then 30 minutes on average. I think he highest known enrage timer is Valithria Dreamwlker with 36 minutes hard enrage, and that one could never be met anyways, you were killed be the soft enrage loooong before that.

M+ requires quite some sill. Yes, the individual boss fights do not have the same amount of mechanics, but on M +10 and higher you need perfect execution for more then 30 minutes. Thats not something Mythic raiding offers.

I don#t want to say its more difficult, but I don#t thinks it easier either.

M+ requires different "skill" than raids to some extent, just like PvP is different from both of those. M+ is however much less tightly tuned(apart from a few exceptions like pre-nerf DHT Xavius and CoS last boss) overall than raids. You definitely do not need perfect execution just to do a M+10 either, especially not for the whole run. Each dungeon usually has a few points that are tough and the rest is pretty chill.

[Svisalith]

Yes, they do their splits during heroic/normal week, that's the evenings of that week gone at most. Then they're locked out from doing more.

And then they do them again after reset, spending most of WoW time inside of raids getting loot.

[Sithalos]

More better

Stopped reading right there.

[Tradu]

And then they do them again after reset, spending most of WoW time inside of raids getting loot.

No, they don't(assuming you mean during mythic week), not anymore. Might do it again in NH, but that remains to be seen. And even so, that's nowhere near "most of their WoW time". During mythic week in EN, they spent most of their WoW time actually doing the mythic raid(at least the ones who ended up winning). Take EN heroic/normal, that takes maybe 1-2 hours to clear. Doing that 6x is maybe a day of raiding for the top guilds, that leaves the other 6 days to grind M+.

[cFortyfive]

all i said was that it wasnt enforced by blizzard

Really pointless.

and yet there were a lot of 25 man guilds

Even more futile shifts like that don't happen over night. Even if you

well a: what else is there BUT to progress helya? shes the last boss, might as well progress on her and killing that bitch will be reward enough when it finally happens, if you dont like overcoming a huge challenge then dont do it, but that's what i do it for, there are no huge nerdscream videos of people doing 15+.

No given the position of my guild being not a top 50 contender and with christmas coming up in fact it will be a huge detriment to our progression in nighthold and given the obvious lack of kills we aren't the only guild.

if you draw the line at 20 pulls then basically every single mythic boss in the game outside a few are not worth it for you? well then you're not the target audience of mythic raids

while you obviously didn't understand the point - me and tons of other players who will leave over the course of legion have been the target audience for the hardest raid content this game had to offer since vanilla. I'd take any bet that the raiding part of the population will shrink over the excessive grinding requirements way more than it naturally would.

ToV

semi rehash a little over a quarter year into the expansion. consider me unimpressed

[Echocho]

I really have no problem with mythic+ runners having an endless supply of 860+ gear, however heroic raiders should get the same treatment and be able to clear the raid 10-20 times per week and at the end of the week get a free 880+ piece.

[Tradu]

I really have no problem with mythic+ runners having an endless supply of 860+ gear, however heroic raiders should get the same treatment and be able to clear the raid 10-20 times per week and at the end of the week get a free 880+ piece.

Would be nice if the chest just went by highest content completed, rather than specifically M+. So you can pick what to do for the weekly chest. Still leaves the issue of the M+s themselves being massively overrewarding and uncapped, but hey.

[ItsTiddles]

Is that why raiders are now equipped mostly with m+ gear instead of the apparently better gear they get from raiding?

I'm 888 with 1 m+ piece

The top 10 highest ilvl players have 14 m+ pieces between them, some not having any.

Now I'm not saying raiders don't use m+ pieces because they do. Some more than others. Though it's just ridiculous to say that "raiders are now equipped mostly with m+ gear" because you want to exaggerate your point.

[Rogalicus]

Now I'm not saying raiders don't use m+ pieces because they do. Some more than others. Though it's just ridiculous to say that "raiders are now equipped mostly with m+ gear" because you want to exaggerate your point.

Yeah, it's not like different specs have different stat priority (unlike EN and ToV gear, which comes with only one option per armor type per slot).

[Deleted]

M+ requires different "skill" than raids to some extent, just like PvP is different from both of those. M+ is however much less tightly tuned(apart from a few exceptions like pre-nerf DHT Xavius and CoS last boss) overall than raids. You definitely do not need perfect execution just to do a M+10 either, especially not for the whole run. Each dungeon usually has a few points that are tough and the rest is pretty chill.

Depends on your ilvl. With 865, +10 pretty much requires near perfect execution. With 880, you have much more leeway.