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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by satanicsuture View Post
    Keep acting dumb, it really helps. Especially when you get called out for it. Next time you go play Icehockey, don't forget to bring your football. That's the same logic you're using.

    Every top tier paladin progressing is using SW unless they lack a prot paladin. Go do your homework.

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    The reason for a Prot paladin getting more out of it is that they can talent Judgement to have several charges while a Holy paladin only has the one with cooldown. Will the charges run out on a singletarget fight? Highly unlikely. Will there be moments when a holy paladin can't judge because the GCD is more valuable spent healing? Yes, numerous times. Will a prot paladin easily refresh it on multiple targets? Yes.

    In other words, for Holy to use it, it's a GCD to refresh it that can be used on other things. In progression fights, there tends to be quite a lot of damage going around because people are learning the fight. That GCD is better served elsewhere. For a Prot paladin, they judge all the time anyway, so it's much easier to rely on them refreshing it.

    As for padding the meters, (just an example) if someone stands in Volcanic in a mythic+, they will drop to around 50% of their life. If they attack the boss twice, they get a nice 20-40k heal, out of 1m health, followed by a Holy shock that will heal that 1m so they are at 100%. That 20-40k heal served no purpose because you'd heal them up instantly anyway, so all it did was pad the meters a bit. If there are no strong singletarget healers I could see the point for leech type spells, but in this case a Holy paladin will have no issues healing up any target from low to 100%, especially using wings. This will only get more accurate once the 2p is released and we can run a 100% holyshock build without using any cooldowns.

    And I agree with your short version. If there's no JoL in the raid, the Holy paladin should specc it, however if there is a Prot paladin then he should be the one using it since SW > JoL.
    Ok I think we are in agreement that if you have a prot pally, he should take it not you.

    But on your example of how it pads the meters, I'm still not following you.

    Let's expand on your example. Dps player X is 1million hp low. Two scenarios, one you took jol one you didn't.

    In the first DPS X does two attacks on the boss and is healed by 40,000. Then you hit him with a holy Shock for 1 million. 960k of that goes as heals, 40k goes as overheals. The meters will show 1mill healed, (40k Will show as overheal).

    In the second scenario you didn't have jol, you cast HS and heal DPS X for 1mill. The meter will show 1mil healed.

    The hps on the meters in both situations will be identical, the only difference will be in overheal. So for your example I don't see the "padding".

    Now if by padding you mean get credit for heals by doing nothing active other than ocassionally casting judgement, then ok I guess, but who cares, it's a valuable way to heal and there's is nothing wrong with that IMHO.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Ok I think we are in agreement that if you have a prot pally, he should take it not you.

    But on your example of how it pads the meters, I'm still not following you.

    Let's expand on your example. Dps player X is 1million hp low. Two scenarios, one you took jol one you didn't.

    In the first DPS X does two attacks on the boss and is healed by 40,000. Then you hit him with a holy Shock for 1 million. 960k of that goes as heals, 40k goes as overheals. The meters will show 1mill healed, (40k Will show as overheal).

    In the second scenario you didn't have jol, you cast HS and heal DPS X for 1mill. The meter will show 1mil healed.

    The hps on the meters in both situations will be identical, the only difference will be in overheal. So for your example I don't see the "padding".

    Now if by padding you mean get credit for heals by doing nothing active other than ocassionally casting judgement, then ok I guess, but who cares, it's a valuable way to heal and there's is nothing wrong with that IMHO.
    In a multiple healer scenario, the JoL heal in this case would be padding the meter because someone else would top off the person resulting in the same mana cost, same heal and a small % is attributed to you without any work done or any benefit to the raid. It's in cases like these I say that type of padding is useless because it doesn't grant the raid any specific survival and it doesn't give you the same bang for the buck as SW does.

    It's similar to the discussion about Firemage dps on Xavius. People call for nerfs because they have insanely high DPS, but it's just padding because the DPS on the actual boss is way lower while the ignite just spreads to tentacles.

    In regards to the last line, I'd agree with everything except "valuable" way to heal because I'd see it as a druid casting 2 HoTs on a low target and you just snipe him up to full with a holy shock. I can also tell you that you can feel the difference between a padding paladin and a raid focused paladin. If Judgement added an absorb for the amount of hp gained, then that's a different story as the absorb itself would contribute to survival no matter what happens. But I'm pretty sure it would be deemed OP then.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by satanicsuture View Post
    You should NEVER specc judgement of light for numerous reasons. A prot pala using it is ofcourse a decent reason, but the fact Sanctified Wrath is so much stronger than JoL is the main one.....On our last Mythic Il'gynoth, Judgement of Light was around 9m healing. On Nythendra mythic, around 11m. Compare that to Sanctified Wrath and only a total idiot would pick Judgement ahead of Wrath. The only and absolutely ONLY time JoL would be even viable is even you have no Prot Paladin AND there's not a burst but more a sustained incoming damage to actually make use of the charges, like Nythendra.

    Keep acting dumb, it really helps. Especially when you get called out for it. Next time you go play Icehockey, don't forget to bring your football. That's the same logic you're using.

    Every top tier paladin progressing is using SW unless they lack a prot paladin. Go do your homework.
    Sooo. Even though I don't want to turn this into a drama thread stop it with the naming cause, again, you act the dumbest. You set out saying that anyone who opts for JoL is an idiot. You contemplated on the total validity of bringing JoL based on your last Nythendra kill and of course I corrected you. Cause if you don't bring JoL is like stripping yourself of your toolkit. It's not about meter padding.

    Quote Originally Posted by satanicsuture View Post
    As for padding the meters, (just an example) if someone stands in Volcanic in a mythic+, they will drop to around 50% of their life. If they attack the boss twice, they get a nice 20-40k heal, out of 1m health, followed by a Holy shock that will heal that 1m so they are at 100%. That 20-40k heal served no purpose because you'd heal them up instantly anyway, so all it did was pad the meters a bit. If there are no strong singletarget healers I could see the point for leech type spells, but in this case a Holy paladin will have no issues healing up any target from low to 100%, especially using wings. This will only get more accurate once the 2p is released and we can run a 100% holyshock build without using any cooldowns.
    Who said anything about mythic + ?

    Quote Originally Posted by satanicsuture View Post
    And I agree with your short version. If there's no JoL in the raid, the Holy paladin should specc it, however if there is a Prot paladin then he should be the one using it since SW > JoL.
    This one sentence defeats your whole logic. As you said (and I agree), if you don't have the buff (cause maybe you lack a prot paladin) spec into it. If you do have it spec SW cause having two JoLs is overkill. Same goes if you're two holy paladins. So you actually need JoL and why wouldn't you want something that can pump 15-20mill healing. Therefore, JoL > SW as a talent. That's my whole argument.

  4. #24
    Oh boy. Actually got me log in just to squash this petty argument.

    JoL and SW are both viable talents depending on the encounter.

    satanicsuture you are absolutely incorrect about all progressing guilds using SW over JoL.
    warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#class=Paladin&spec=Holy&metric=hps

    Also, if you switch to wipes the pattern still remains the same.

    To also note on your use of derogatory comments to the paladins who do use it. Holy paladins in mythic progression use JoL 76% of the time. You keep pointing at the other person here in your argument about checking logs and doing research but it appears you have not done so yourself.

    If you wish to dispute any of these statements please provide logs with exact data to backup your statement. Don't be a child with the "because I said so it's a fact" mentality.


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    Quote Originally Posted by satanicsuture View Post
    Yeah you proved yourself as the retard long ago. Go pad your meters and go check the logs of progress raids before you act retarded again.

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    Funny how the MAJORITY of Holypaladins progress raiding are using SW and not JoL. In fact, More than 90% of the paladins with a Prot Paladin are using SW and the other paladins using JoL do so because they lack a Prot paladin.
    You also are incorrect here as well.
    warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#class=Paladin&spec=Protection&metric=hps&search=6.1.-1,6.2.-1

    75%+ Holy paladins use JoL even though they have a Prot Paladin.
    Also noteworthy all holy paladins in the world top 5 mythic progression guilds use JoL over SW even though they have a protection paladin.

    The deeper you delve SW seems to be a go to talent for specific encounters.

    To get back to OP:

    Most talents are viable in the tree and really depend on the encounter and raid demands. This usually will take time to learn or speaking to your other healers.

  5. #25
    People didn't use JoL? >_> I mean, I guess if you had a prot paladin, as trying to battle for charges is annoying.

    But otherwise, it's hella mana efficient, the overheal is like 1% (it won't proc if the person doesn't have missing HP), and can be applied with 1 gcd, no thought involved or chance to fuck up.

    And I love divine purpose over the others. Holy Avenger is great, maybe on really short fights it pulls ahead, but ToV has some long encounters, and you just increase your time to OOM so much with it over HA. Both have their upsides, and use cases.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Alextros View Post
    Unless they fixed it, also remember that the CD reset on Light of Dawn will be spent if Second Sunrise procs (Thus you only have a mana free LoD which is on CD), which really bums out the setup
    they fixed it

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuziatella View Post
    Oh boy. Actually got me log in just to squash this petty argument.

    JoL and SW are both viable talents depending on the encounter.

    satanicsuture you are absolutely incorrect about all progressing guilds using SW over JoL.
    warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#class=Paladin&spec=Holy&metric=hps

    Also, if you switch to wipes the pattern still remains the same.

    To also note on your use of derogatory comments to the paladins who do use it. Holy paladins in mythic progression use JoL 76% of the time. You keep pointing at the other person here in your argument about checking logs and doing research but it appears you have not done so yourself.

    If you wish to dispute any of these statements please provide logs with exact data to backup your statement. Don't be a child with the "because I said so it's a fact" mentality.


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    You also are incorrect here as well.
    warcraftlogs.com/rankings/12#class=Paladin&spec=Protection&metric=hps&search=6.1.-1,6.2.-1

    75%+ Holy paladins use JoL even though they have a Prot Paladin.
    Also noteworthy all holy paladins in the world top 5 mythic progression guilds use JoL over SW even though they have a protection paladin.

    The deeper you delve SW seems to be a go to talent for specific encounters.

    To get back to OP:

    Most talents are viable in the tree and really depend on the encounter and raid demands. This usually will take time to learn or speaking to your other healers.
    Do you have a reading disability or just slightly dumb? It takes less than 10 seconds to read a log and even less to notice you're omitting stats to try and justify a false argument. Oh and the quickest example is http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...c3%ac/advanced But let me guess, ranked 2nd in the world using SW ahead of JoL must be incorrect.

    Not to mention http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ehmol/advanced as well as http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...c3%a2/advanced But let me guess, 3 out of 5 of the worlds top 5 mythic progression guilds using SW ahead of JoL must mean JoL is stronger right?

    Prefer %? ONE holy paladin in the top 6 is using JoL with a Protection Paladin in the raid. 20% looks way smaller than 75%+ doesn't it.

    Want to spout bullshit? Make sure you check your facts next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedralixx View Post
    Sooo. Even though I don't want to turn this into a drama thread stop it with the naming cause, again, you act the dumbest. You set out saying that anyone who opts for JoL is an idiot. You contemplated on the total validity of bringing JoL based on your last Nythendra kill and of course I corrected you. Cause if you don't bring JoL is like stripping yourself of your toolkit. It's not about meter padding.



    Who said anything about mythic + ?

    This one sentence defeats your whole logic. As you said (and I agree), if you don't have the buff (cause maybe you lack a prot paladin) spec into it. If you do have it spec SW cause having two JoLs is overkill. Same goes if you're two holy paladins. So you actually need JoL and why wouldn't you want something that can pump 15-20mill healing. Therefore, JoL > SW as a talent. That's my whole argument.
    As for Mythic+ :

    "As for padding the meters, (just an example) if someone stands in Volcanic in a mythic+"

    Bringing JoL ahead of SW is stripping yourself of a very useful cooldown in order the bring leech to the raid. And the fact is you don't NEED JoL however just as leech, it's better to have than not. Want a more clear example? Guarm during his charge. JoL will still probably net you 10m+ healing over the course of the fight. Do you think JoL will save someone from dying or would SW do a better job? And as a healer, what's your role in the raid? To prevent people from dying. Therefor SW > JoL as a talent. And to add to that point, those 10m+ would still have a decent chunk of padding as you'd heal someone for an amount another healer would have overhealed anyway.

    As I wrote to Hawg earlier : "In a multiple healer scenario, the JoL heal in this case would be padding the meter because someone else would top off the person resulting in the same mana cost, same heal and a small % is attributed to you without any work done or any benefit to the raid. It's in cases like these I say that type of padding is useless because it doesn't grant the raid any specific survival and it doesn't give you the same bang for the buck as SW does."

    Please refrain from insulting other forum users.
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2016-12-16 at 09:47 PM.

  8. #28
    Ok, I'll stop posting now. Your logic is damaged beyond repair.
    Last edited by Nedralixx; 2016-12-15 at 05:01 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedralixx View Post
    Ok, I'll stop posting now. Your logic is damaged beyond repair.
    I didn't even bother because I knew there was no point arguing with stupid.
    My FC is 1177 - 6552 - 9842 PM with yours if you add.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by satanicsuture View Post
    Do you have a reading disability or just slightly dumb? It takes less than 10 seconds to read a log and even less to notice you're omitting stats to try and justify a false argument. Oh and the quickest example is http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...c3%ac/advanced But let me guess, ranked 2nd in the world using SW ahead of JoL must be incorrect.

    Not to mention http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ehmol/advanced as well as http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...c3%a2/advanced But let me guess, 3 out of 5 of the worlds top 5 mythic progression guilds using SW ahead of JoL must mean JoL is stronger right?

    Prefer %? ONE holy paladin in the top 6 is using JoL with a Protection Paladin in the raid. 20% looks way smaller than 75%+ doesn't it.

    Want to spout bullshit? Make sure you check your facts next time.

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    As for Mythic+ :

    "As for padding the meters, (just an example) if someone stands in Volcanic in a mythic+"

    Bringing JoL ahead of SW is stripping yourself of a very useful cooldown in order the bring leech to the raid. And the fact is you don't NEED JoL however just as leech, it's better to have than not. Want a more clear example? Guarm during his charge. JoL will still probably net you 10m+ healing over the course of the fight. Do you think JoL will save someone from dying or would SW do a better job? And as a healer, what's your role in the raid? To prevent people from dying. Therefor SW > JoL as a talent. And to add to that point, those 10m+ would still have a decent chunk of padding as you'd heal someone for an amount another healer would have overhealed anyway.

    As I wrote to Hawg earlier : "In a multiple healer scenario, the JoL heal in this case would be padding the meter because someone else would top off the person resulting in the same mana cost, same heal and a small % is attributed to you without any work done or any benefit to the raid. It's in cases like these I say that type of padding is useless because it doesn't grant the raid any specific survival and it doesn't give you the same bang for the buck as SW does."


    Saying JoL is not viable because it's "padding" is like saying a holy priest speccing into mastery is "padding".


    It's been proven, expansion after expansion.... hot like heals are king on any fight that have ticking damage.

    Nythendra
    Dragons
    Cenarius

    Fights with predictable raid wide aoe spike damage
    Ursoc
    Elerethe
    Xavius


    Fights where damage is mostly random, and there is not a primary target to dps
    Il'gynoth

    We are talking 1 fight, where SW is a clear winner. ELerethe is debatable between JoL and SW but honestly I have ran both and have done just fine.

    JoL is particularly special because it increases the recovery of the ENTIRE RAID. It's a literaly 20 man aoe heal if everyone is dpsing. Since most raids run about 12-14 dps... you are looking at a heal that can heal 80k to all 14 people instantly.

    Nothing gets better then that. This is coming from a current mythic raider (with logs to back myself up) as well as experience raiding in top 100 guilds in the US.

    Your logic saying SW is king above all else is flawed because you are lacking the raid mentality. JoL on the three fights I just named, help mitigate a large portion of the ticking damage going out on the fights. Raid HPS > Singular HPS

    JOL = Raid HPS
    SW = Singular HPS


    Now, with that said... if you have legendary ring. It makes JoL on a fight like ursoc, where there is predictable incoming raid damage 100% mandatory. You are talking about a 20% increase to your next 5 seconds of healing, which is going to be the entire duration of JoL as well as LoD and probably 1-2 more heals. If you spec into DP, you have a good chance of getting 2-3 LoD off within that 5 second window.


    Also, stop calling each other dumb. You look silly trying to win an argument with childish name calling.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by satanicsuture View Post
    Do you have a reading disability or just slightly dumb? It takes less than 10 seconds to read a log and even less to notice you're omitting stats to try and justify a false argument. Oh and the quickest example is Rei<link removed see original post> But let me guess, ranked 2nd in the world using SW ahead of JoL must be incorrect.

    Not to mention Pehmol and Kina. <Edited because of links> But let me guess, 3 out of 5 of the worlds top 5 mythic progression guilds using SW ahead of JoL must mean JoL is stronger right?

    Prefer %? ONE holy paladin in the top 6 is using JoL with a Protection Paladin in the raid. 20% looks way smaller than 75%+ doesn't it.

    Want to spout bullshit? Make sure you check your facts next time.

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    Reì
    Armory: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Re%c3%ac/advanced
    Logs: warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/20414958/10/

    JoL = 95% used among all encounters.

    Pehmol & Kinâ
    Twitch VoD: twitch.tv/pehmil/v/107641491
    But really you can choose any of the VoDs as one or the other HPal will always take JoL.
    But to put it in terms you can understand easily. They are ALWAYS having one of the paladins take it except for Ilgy where both take SW

    Do your homework. I already did mine.

    Don't ever try to backup your statement with what the person last logged off with when their armory updated. That's foolish as you have no idea what they were doing before they logged off for the talents they have chosen. It isn't as if they logged out mid fight to snapshot their talents. Also, at the time of writing this both Pehmol & Kina have JoL talent chosen.

    Accept you are wrong, sit down, and shut up. Don't be a jackalope
    Last edited by Nuziatella; 2016-12-16 at 09:03 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuziatella View Post
    Reì
    Armory: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Re%c3%ac/advanced
    Logs: warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/20414958/10/

    JoL = 95% used among all encounters.

    Pehmol & Kinâ
    Twitch VoD: twitch.tv/pehmil/v/107641491
    But really you can choose any of the VoDs as one or the other HPal will always take JoL.
    But to put it in terms you can understand easily. They are ALWAYS having one of the paladins take it except for Ilgy where both take SW

    Do your homework. I already did mine.

    Don't ever try to backup your statement with what the person last logged off with when their armory updated. That's foolish as you have no idea what they were doing before they logged off for the talents they have chosen. It isn't as if they logged out mid fight to snapshot their talents. Also, at the time of writing this both Pehmol & Kina have JoL talent chosen.

    Accept you are wrong, sit down, and shut up. Don't be a jackalope
    Are you too dumb to accept facts? Already proved you wrong several times. The one that can go shut up is you since you're obviously too fucking dumb to get it.

    And FYI, go watch their mythic kills next time you spout bullshit about "logging off armory".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedralixx View Post
    Ok, I'll stop posting now. Your logic is damaged beyond repair.
    Makes it easier to say you stay out when you can't comprehend simple logic, right?

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2016-12-25 at 12:10 AM.

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