The gate to get into PvP is now higher than ever in the post Wotlk days

[Doctor Funkenstein]

(Guy #2806 who doesn't read.)

Read the thread.

No, guy does read. Your bullshit is just that: Bullshit. You're the one who doesn't understand. You're the one with no clue. Legion has it better than any other expansion in the game. Your obliviousness to that fact is exactly that: Obliviousness.

[rda]

No, guy does read. Your bullshit is just that: Bullshit. You're the one who doesn't understand. You're the one with no clue. Legion has it better than any other expansion in the game. Your obliviousness to that fact is exactly that: Obliviousness.

LOL

Quote a thing I said that is bullshit and explain why it is bullshit.

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PS: Or explain why Legion "has it better than any other expansion in the game", tell by what metric and show numbers. Go ahead.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

PS: Or explain why Legion "has it better than any other expansion in the game", tell by what metric and show numbers. Go ahead.

Metric: Common Sense.
Issue: You have none.
Cause: You just want to whine and bitch and try to act smart, when in fact you're not. In fact, you're so not smart that you can't even comprehend the fact that you aren't. Which, honestly, is a huge problem in general and not just isolated to people like you.

The information you're whining and bitching about has already been addressed. Multiple times. So regurgitating it for the umpteenth time is, quite clearly, pointless. Hence the above.

Enjoy your whining and bitching. While you do so, everyone else will continue to enjoy Legion's take on PVP gear over past expansions as well as enjoying the lack of an impact gear makes as a whole in PVP.

P.S. If you are getting your ass kicked in PVP still, I hate to break it to you, but... it's not your gear's fault.

[FelPlague]

"stating that before, you could start pvp and be close to other players in strength, even though players could be up to 50 ilvl above you, and by that be about 100% stronger then you"

"well stating in legion somone can "somehow" get 100 ilvl over you, and be 10% stronger then you, and that is super overpowered (allthoguht reaching 110 you basically instantly get to 830-840, and getting to 900 is pretty much impossible right now)"


nice thread, i feel like RDA, Shuubi and a few others all worked together to make this thread so they could circle jerk about how "pvp gear is so unbalanced right now and somone can easily 1 shot you cause they have better gear, but in the past everyone was the same strength"

[thatmikeguy]

Are you serious? The top gear you can get in PvE gives a much smaller overall power difference in PvP than ever! Also, the Artifact Weapon does nothing past 34 for PvP.

World PvP is another story.

[Deleted]

Jabberwock, can you provide the link to the character in question talked about here:

And no, it doesn't matter nearly as much as you claim. Just saying "it still matters, herp a derp!" doesn't make it so. I have a PVP alt at the moment that I only got to 110 about two weeks ago. His item level is already 868 and he hasn't stepped foot inside a raid (including LFR) OR done any mythic content; just world quests, PVP, and whatever dungeons he had quests for while leveling up (none of which, if I recall, actually gave him an upgrade anyway).

Once you've done that, explain to me great detail how you did it and I would really appreciate it. In return I can tell you how it only took a few days to get full honor and only a few weeks for full conquest in Wod (I did that several times and I can provide you links to those characters as well). Deal? No pun intended here.

Are you serious? The top gear you can get in PvE gives a much smaller overall power difference in PvP than ever! Also, the Artifact Weapon does nothing past 34 for PvP.

Do tell how pvp gear scaling to 740 was a larger gap between pvp and pve gear in pvp compared to now.
@FelPlague

I presented in this thread 3 reasons, which I also like to believe that I explained well enough if you just bother to read the original post, that I think is causing the low pvp participation rate we are experiencing right now. If you disagree, then what do you think is the reason why the participation rate is low? According to you, it seems there should be nothing keeping people away from pvp in Legion.

[rda]

Metric: Common Sense.
Issue: You have none.
Cause: You just want to whine and bitch and try to act smart, when in fact you're not. In fact, you're so not smart that you can't even comprehend the fact that you aren't. Which, honestly, is a huge problem in general and not just isolated to people like you.

The information you're whining and bitching about has already been addressed. Multiple times. So regurgitating it for the umpteenth time is, quite clearly, pointless. Hence the above.

Enjoy your whining and bitching. While you do so, everyone else will continue to enjoy Legion's take on PVP gear over past expansions as well as enjoying the lack of an impact gear makes as a whole in PVP.

P.S. If you are getting your ass kicked in PVP still, I hate to break it to you, but... it's not your gear's fault.

I am struggling to find a single phrase with a statement that would be worth replying to. It's all so mushy. What it is I am whining and bitching about specifically? Where and how it has been addressed? Multiple times? How about just one time - what was the addressing?

You are just a balloon full of hot air. No substance whatsoever. I guess you felt that you just had to say something but saw that "oh, damn, I didn't know that" and "oh, god, they might be right, what do I do now", so no substance is the best you could do.

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"stating that before, you could start pvp and be close to other players in strength, even though players could be up to 50 ilvl above you, and by that be about 100% stronger then you"

"well stating in legion somone can "somehow" get 100 ilvl over you, and be 10% stronger then you, and that is super overpowered (allthoguht reaching 110 you basically instantly get to 830-840, and getting to 900 is pretty much impossible right now)"


nice thread, i feel like RDA, Shuubi and a few others all worked together to make this thread so they could circle jerk about how "pvp gear is so unbalanced right now and somone can easily 1 shot you cause they have better gear, but in the past everyone was the same strength"

Was there a message in this or did you felt like you just had to post something like Jabberwock?

You can see everything about the state of PVP in the participation numbers. They went down in Legion to 50-60% they were in WoD. Quite an achievement.

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Are you serious? The top gear you can get in PvE gives a much smaller overall power difference in PvP than ever! Also, the Artifact Weapon does nothing past 34 for PvP.

World PvP is another story.

Ha-ha-ha.

The stream of people who can't math, can't read, and don't know much yet feel like they have an opinion worth sharing will just never end. Not going to reply to this, my charity quota has been used up for at least a month.

[FelPlague]

Jabberwock, can you provide the link to the character in question talked about here:



Once you've done that, explain to me great detail how you did it and I would really appreciate it. In return I can tell you how it only took a few days to get full honor and only a few weeks for full conquest in Wod (I did that several times and I can provide you links to those characters as well). Deal? No pun intended here.




Do tell how pvp gear scaling to 740 was a larger gap between pvp and pve gear in pvp compared to now.
@FelPlague

I presented in this thread 3 reasons, which I also like to believe that I explained well enough if you just bother to read the original post, that I think is causing the low pvp participation rate we are experiencing right now. If you disagree, then what do you think is the reason why the participation rate is low? According to you, it seems there should be nothing keeping people away from pvp in Legion.

i think its because
1. getting the gear is so dificult
2. its very unbalanced right now

i dont think its because somone can enter pvp with 100 ilvl higher then you and kill you in 1-3 casts...

[Phookah]

Keep those goalposts moving guys! You've already been disproved about the gate to get into pvp "being higher than ever" (lol), quick make the thread about something else!

[rda]

Keep those goalposts moving guys! You've already been disproved about the gate to get into pvp "being higher than ever" (lol), quick make the thread about something else!

An easy way to tell a know-nothing is that they don't say anything specific. "You've been proven wrong, guys", but I won't tell you what about and how. Sure. :-)

[Kagthul]

You're right, it's soooo much better not getting any gear at all and instead just having to farm 20-30 matches to buy one piece. And yeah, the Horde never win any matches at all. Those poor souls!

Or you could not PvP at all and get a full set of gear in less than six hours.

What the fuck are you blathering about? Nothing of what you just wrote makes any sense.

3rd grade math too hard for you? Gear disparity in stats for WoD - 9.4%; Gear disparity in stats for Legion - roughly 10%. Math is rough, man.

You're the idiot saying you can't get gear from PVP. You're wrong. Very, very wrong. It's pathetically easy to get gear without ever stepping foot into a raid or even a dungeon. And everything you get -- from any source -- IS PVP gear.

Which is a different problem, but thanks for bringing it up. You should get the best rewards for the activity you participate in from the activity you participate in. Right now, you get better rewards, and particularly, rewards for time spent, for PvP, from PvE.

Hate to break it to you, but it is. Your whining in the original post and the subject for said post says it al.

I really need that Captain Picard ascii facepalm here.

Hey DUMBNUTS.... IM NOT THE FUCKING ORIGINAL POSTER. . Maybe if you could read or do math past the kindergarten level?

No it's not. You hit level 110, you queue for PVP, you're good to go. Your gear has a minimal effect on how well you do, and as you gear up -- which you do just fine while PVPing -- your stats only get marginally better.

... you can't hit 110 and just queue for PvP and be "good to go". If you do that:

You have NO Honor Talents
You are 18-20% behind in Stamina from Artifact Traits
You are 20-24 artifact traits behind
You are 7-10% behind on stats from Gear. (When you hit 110, you're wearing a bunch of 780-800 gear..)

That's not viable for PvP. Roughly 30% less stam just right off the top is enough to make you non-viable.

This right here is why I was so angry at people in this thread. What you have just said, and what rda said to me, are two different things. He said, and I would quote if I knew how to do 2 different people in one text,

Just cut and paste what he said, and use [ quote=(Nameofperson) ] without the spaces on the brackets. Then close it with [ /quote ], again, without the spaces. Such as:

rda said this

.

from quest greens to conquest gear the power disparity was 45%.

Right, following you so far. He's not wrong.

The difference from quest greens and high ilvl in legion is not 100 ilvls, not currently anyway,

Its almost exactly 100 iLevels, actually. Quest greens stop at 783. And it will continue to grow. At the current rate of mudlfation, we're looking at a 200+ iLevel expansion.

and is 9%. THAT is the difference, and that is where you are getting confused.

Im not confused at all. Not being in Honor gear (previously) was a "barrier to entry" for PvP. Following along?

Saying "Oh honor gear takes 6 hours to get" doesnt change that fact. That is still playtime, that's still some kind of grind I have to do. I cannot do pvp without getting facesmashed in quest greens in WoD. Youre right, i remember the gladiators sanctum and aspirants gear was coming fast, but that itself still took time to do. In that time in Legion I already have my first tier of honor talents, several thousand AP from bg's/honor levels/wq's (same as having to farm ashran imo), all while no longer having my face pummelled.

So, we agree that not having Honor talents and being far behind on AP is a "barrier to entry for PvP". Good. Would you say this initial processes takes more or less than six hours?

I dont want to detract from the above, but....As to not having your face pummeled? Hardly. I play 5 classes at 110 (soon to be six, since i havent burned my free 100). ONE of them is even remotely viable for PvP with just the first rank of Honor talents. The other four all require the entire honor talent tree to be unlocked. And even after your initial forray, you're still ~20% stamina behind just from Artifact Traits alone, + gear stat boosts compounding on top of this.

THAT is the difference between WoD and Legion in terms of going into pvp out the gate. So no, getting into pvp is NOT harder than it was before.

Barrier of Entry going into PvP for WoD: Six hours (you needed Honor Gear to not get farmed/be viable) - during which you didn't even have to PvP. At the end of this barrier of entry, you are (AT MOST) 9.4% behind in stats compared to someone in literally the best PvP gear in the game.


Barrier of Entry going into PvP for Legion: (If we take your "just the first RoW of honor talents and 10-12 traits is totally viable!" argument at face value, which i absolutely DO NOT, but for arguments sake, we will) About 10-12 hours of farming Honor and AP for traits. So, twice as long, roughly (time established by taking the quickest BGs (WSG) and assuming a 100% win rate at 6 minutes).... and instead of being AT MOST 9.4% behind in stats, you're still 7-8% behind (because you dont get 850 gear from just jumping in, hate to break it to you - its based off of your current iLevel and Honor Level) in stats from gear, 20% behind on Stam (compounded by the 7-8% stat bonus, so more like 25%), and dont have your second or third rank Honor talents or most of the traits on your Artifact, which alone can be a 30-40% DPS increase (or HPS increase, or survivability increase).

So... which Barrier of Entry is higher again? Six hours to total viability and being less than 10% behind, or 10-12 hours of being nowhere near caught up, still behind 24% on Stam or more, 7-8% on all other stats, and missing giant DPS increases from arti traits? Get it now?

In terms of getting a full set of high ilvl pvp gear (880 or so, the highest from EN mythic atm, the second highest ilvl rewarding content in this game atm), then yes that takes quite a while due to the RNG nature of gear drops in pvp, which I agree sucks ass. Gear still drops like crazy. Yesterday alone, doing about 20 games of 3v3, 2 skirmishes, 2 random bgs and 3 rated bgs, I got 10 pieces of gear. 3 and a bit hours and 10 pieces, 2 of which were upgrades over the PVE gear I've collected (since I do pve as well in this expansion, they were all actually 855 or higher ilvl, which is better than mythic and early mythic+ dungeons). Does that not sound good to you? I think the only piece i got more than once was a ring, which was useless because I had a legendary.

You're only getting those drops because youre doing rated (where the iLevel floor starts quite a bit higher) and your overall iLevel (which helps determine what the base iLevel floor is in randos) is inflated because you were doing PvE. Not seeing the issue here? Best way to get PvP gear is to PvE?

rda presented the facts of the ilvl disparity,

Which he got from a thread where he and i laid them out, yeah.

and while I agree that grinding AP also creates a grind and power disparity, between honor levels, wqs and whatever form of pvp you do, its really not a massive grind. You would be at AK 10 right now if you got to 110 10 days ago,

10 days seems like a LOT longer than six hours. Like.. 40 times as long.

your also wrong on how much AK you'd have. It only shortens the research time to 1 day for the first four ranks, then it is 2 days.... and this is only if you're on an alt where your main is more than 15 AK ranks ahead.

We're examining how the system works for a fresh 110. Assuming they also have a main that is 15+ AK ranks in is a false narrative.

and will have your 3rd golden trait.

Only if you're spending 6-7 hours a day grinding AP. Costs for traits rise exponentially. And we're still FAR ahead of six hours here.

Beyond that are fairly useless traits and 7% stamina. I dont know the difference between honor and conquest gear in terms of HP, but im willing to bet even if you had half conquest you were roughly 7% stamina behind.

9.4% in all statistics.. including stam, was the disparity between full honor and full conquest. So, in half conquest, about a 4.5-5% stam difference AT MOST. (I could do the math, but id like to get my Emissary quests done first).

As to "fairly useless traits" - you have GOT to get over this "GOLD TRAITS ZOMG" thing. For a lot of classes, theyre utterly useless. Lets take Affliction Warlock (one of the characters i play) - All but one of the Gold Traits is 100% useless in PvP. Far-outlying traits, though, are 100% needed to be even remotely viable in PvP. You need Drained to a Husk (not a Golden Trait), Harvester of Souls (the gold trait just past it), Shadows of the Flesh (also nearby) on one end of the tree... and Hideous Corruption and Long Dark Night of the Soul (on the far other side), as well as Sweet Souls to be viable. Thats a 30 point investment.

Finally, shuubi, 2 weeks is certainly enough time to get 868 just doing pvp and WQ's.

Only if you're being carried into Mythics to get your iLevel base up quickly, which again, is a false narrative - we're talking about a fresh 110 and how this system was supposed to work, not people who can fund alts on mains. Gear gains from WQs are based on your current iLevel. Unless you got incredibly lucky on RNG and everything under the sun Titanforged for you, no way.

... and this still doesn't address that the best way to gear for PVP was...

to PvE. Great system, there.

In 4 hours alone yesterday I had 10 pieces of gear ranging from 855-880 ilvl.

Then you were incredibly, incredibly lucky on the RNG, because your base floor from five of those (Skrims and Randos) is 840 -IF- you are Honor Level 46 or higher. Its lower otherwise (all the way down to 805). On the rated games, the floor is 840, and only goes up based on your rating. To get 855 defaults you're looking at 1850 or higher.

Imagine that for 2 weeks. Maybe a legendary or two.

Only if you are INCREDIBLY lucky with the RNG and are playing 5-6+ hours a day. I still have two characters who dont even have a legendary, despite doing Emissary quests every day, and Mythic/+ dungeons, and this is DESPITE the so-called "youll get one eventually" protection.

Legions system isnt perfect but other than this thread I think the main concern isnt the barrier to entry its that PvP gear comes in such an RNG way. If you could target the piece you get at 10 wins I'm sure people would be happier.

The issue is that the "barrier of entry" is higher no matter how you slice it.

Does it take longer than six hours? Yes?

Then it is higher.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

... you can't hit 110 and just queue for PvP and be "good to go".

Funny, I did! And it worked just fine!

If you do that:

You GAIN Honor Talents.
You GAIN Artifact Power at a rapid pace.
You GAIN Artifact Traits.
You GAIN Gear at a rapid pace.

All of which is perfectly valid for PVP!

As I said before: If you're getting your ass stomped in PVP in Legion, you only have yourself to blame. As they say: Learn2Play, because it's not about the fucking gear.

[Deleted]

Could you provide a link to that character, Jabberwock?

[Sithalos]

The fact that the game is probably the most unbalanced it's been in a very long time, isn't really helping participation.

I love melee heavy metas, don't you?

[Kagthul]

That is like what, 1 expansions ago? In WoD, legendary ring effect did not work in PvP but it was still strongest by item level because PvP rings were not.
I don't know who thought you to be a girl and just going on and on just so you can be right or if you are one, ok sorry - you are right.

Uhh.. no. It was scaled down to 730, just like every other PvE item.

[Mafic]

That is like what, 1 expansions ago? In WoD, legendary ring effect did not work in PvP but it was still strongest by item level because PvP rings were not.
I don't know who thought you to be a girl and just going on and on just so you can be right or if you are one, ok sorry - you are right.

The legendary ring effect worked in Ashran but it was scaled down if I remember correctly.