Templates: success / failure

[Aflakk47]

In my opinion, templates are a failure for gutting the usefulness of some stat-specific specs. Honestly, I think they could balance out PvP by using your current stat weightings as how they distribute the fixed amount of stats.

For Example; Your fixed secondary stat total is 16000 points
On your gear, your stats are divided as 40% mastery, 40% crit, 20% vers (out of 100%, not actual value)
When in PvP, blizz will then give you 6400 Mastery, 6400 Crit and 3200 Vers

This also makes your gear choice actually mean something and if you want to stack 1 stat over another to overcome some issue you're having, you have the ability to do it. You also aren't forced to have 1/4 of your stats put into something that provides little to no bonus for your spec (ie: Haste for assassination rogues; provides nothing but a little extra energy/sec, has 0 synergy with Bleeds/Poisons which almost all our damage comes from)

But that's just my opinion.

[rda]

It's a success because they are balancing WoW much more frequent now then before.

At least now we don't have to wait for a new patch (7.1 to 7.2 in 6 months) to see balance changes like past expansions.

The important question is - do these patches make balance better? The answer is no.

So, sure, they are easy to do and so they happen more often. But they don't help. (If you said that we haven't seen enough of them to make a judgement, I'd understand, but that's a different thing - the answer to "did they help to date" is a plain and unequivocal "no".)

[Noctiphobia]

In my opinion, templates are a failure for gutting the usefulness of some stat-specific specs. Honestly, I think they could balance out PvP by using your current stat weightings as how they distribute the fixed amount of stats.

For Example; Your fixed secondary stat total is 16000 points
On your gear, your stats are divided as 40% mastery, 40% crit, 20% vers (out of 100%, not actual value)
When in PvP, blizz will then give you 6400 Mastery, 6400 Crit and 3200 Vers

This also makes your gear choice actually mean something and if you want to stack 1 stat over another to overcome some issue you're having, you have the ability to do it. You also aren't forced to have 1/4 of your stats put into something that provides little to no bonus for your spec (ie: Haste for assassination rogues; provides nothing but a little extra energy/sec, has 0 synergy with Bleeds/Poisons which almost all our damage comes from)

But that's just my opinion.

Giving people an option of customizing their gear is not a meaningful decision. Here are the reasons:
- there always is the best, cookie cutter build
- equipment from PvP is random, so actually getting your desired pieces would be just annoying (or even worse, it would require PvE)
- specs are balanced around their "best" variant (with the best gear choices and talents), since that's what everyone will end up with - so if you think your spec performs badly due to stat distribution, without that you'd just get a flat damage nerf to compensate for having better stats.

[rda]

Giving people an option of customizing their gear is not a meaningful decision. Here are the reasons:
- there always is the best, cookie cutter build
- equipment from PvP is random, so actually getting your desired pieces would be just annoying (or even worse, it would require PvE)
- specs are balanced around their "best" variant (with the best gear choices and talents), since that's what everyone will end up with - so if you think your spec performs badly due to stat distribution, without that you'd just get a flat damage nerf to compensate for having better stats.

No, there isn't always the best, cookie cutter build, sometimes there are several (usually just two, but that's a lot more than just one) conflicting builds with different playstyles. Ie, maxing mastery vs maxing crit.

Yes, balancing is perhaps harder, but we can see that even drastic simplifications (they threw away half the game for PVP if we count all changes) don't result in better balance. So, perhaps the problem is not the number of factors, the problem is stupid (lacking) balancing methodology.

[chaddd]

For someone who casually PVPs (just random BGs) right now they are great. I used to PVP more in the past but when I don't have time to really dedicate to it, it's not fun. Being so out geared in a random BG isn't fun at all and made it really un-enjoyable. As a result I have had to choose between raiding and PVP, and raiding wins every time for me. Now that, to me it seems, PVP is more balanced I am on more level ground with everyone. I can go into a BG and generally be in the top 5-10 dmg overall for both factions. I am not completely bowled over by people in amazing gear. For my playstyle the templates are a success.

Now devil's advocate... for people who focus more on PVP vs PVE they may have lost something. Being able to out gear people and wreckface in open world PVP or own because of what you have invested in a BG may be lost. I can see why that may frustrate the people who focus on PVP as a primary thing in game.

[Aflakk47]

Giving people an option of customizing their gear is not a meaningful decision. Here are the reasons:
- there always is the best, cookie cutter build
- equipment from PvP is random, so actually getting your desired pieces would be just annoying (or even worse, it would require PvE)
- specs are balanced around their "best" variant (with the best gear choices and talents), since that's what everyone will end up with - so if you think your spec performs badly due to stat distribution, without that you'd just get a flat damage nerf to compensate for having better stats.

Except there's some specs that have multiple 'variants', and again as an example; Assassination Rogue
Bleed requires Crit/Vers
Poison requires Crit/Mastery
Neither have any use for haste, which we are forced to take with these templates, so overall we're stuck with mediocre at best specs because again, 1/4 of our stats are practically useless, while another 1/4 have a small effect on our damage depending on which sub-spec you want to play with.

Everyone's damage is already down 60% or whatever due to the main stat reduction, and I'm perfectly ok with that since it'd be extremely unbalanced running around critting for 1.4mil like I do in PvE. We should at least be able to have some flexibility when it comes to secondary stats to make some minor changes depending on how we want to play

[Alvorea]

I think it is a failure mostly because it takes away depth from the game. In my opinion the fun about World Of Warcraft PvP (or MMO PvP in general) was always the fact that you don't simply play your class (like champions in Mobas for example) but your own character. This means that you also have to plan your character not only when it comes to talents (again even Mobas like League of Legends have talent trees + runes) but it's also about choosing the correct gear, getting more of the stat that has the most benefits (the peak was of course MoP with reforging etc.) and really playing the way you want to play (sometimes even ignoring the fact that it isn't the most viable option).

This was also reflected in specializations like Windwalker or Frost DK who basically had two completely different play styles with different stat priorities, talents etc. It added so much flavour to the game and at the same time gave you something to work on. You could always optimize your character to a certain point and when you were done you could do the same thing for your other specializations. I know many players who feel the same way about this. I think it's a shame that this component was removed from PvP because it was as much a part of the game as the actual gameplay inside arenas/battlegrounds. Now that they've taken it away it feels like you're simply playing a template (or a nameless specimen of the class you chose) which is completely separated from the rest of the game.

A few months into Legion all I do is farm artifact power and queue for BGs / arena from time to time. Gear, enchants or even stats don't play an actual role except when it comes to open PvP (which is also completely lackluster). I got to ~2,1k rating last season when I realised that there's no real appeal for me as a "casual" player (because I'm not a professional who's goal it is to reach 3k rating) and I simply stopped playing rated arena at that point. I think Blizzard has lost the way. To me it feels like they're only catering to either
a) completely new players
or
b) "professional players"
There's no middle ground anymore.

This. The game lost its identity PVP wise, you are playing an entirely different game when joining a PVP match and that is not RPG if you are using a template with ur character skin on it.

[Thelxi]

Total failure, at least for me the player. For Blizzard it probably was a huge success, as in it has never been easier to balance pvp.

[Bullettime]

I don't think the templates are that bad. The issue is more the team doing the tweaking and the huge discrepancy between class toolkits.

[DeicideUH]

I think templates are a nice idea that works. Most of the complains against them are actually caused by other issues, like the Artifact power being a big barrier to enter PvP and the classes/specs being unbalanced in toolkits (utility/CC/survivability). No ammount of number tuning from templates can fix those issues.

I think Legion was great with its new systems (Prestige, Honor talents, templates), but other issues made the experience bad overall.

[Riistov]

Failure. MMOs are about immersion in a seamless world, this stupid separation of PvP and PvE destroys that vision.

They should try harder instead, achievieng a somewhat acceptable balance level cannot be that hard.

For 12 years now, everyone has complained about balance and that PvE changes are ruining PvE. Can't blame them for trying a new direction.

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I have to say I had misgivings about it when it was announced, but I really enjoyed this season for the most part. The one thing that really struck me was just how many viable comps there were in Legion s1 compared to WoD s1. In WoD, everything had gotten very formulaic and stale in my opinion. You always knew what a certain comp was going to do, and there was not much room to outplay counters. This seasons games are very unpredictable, which I feel leads to a lot more excitement in the game.

[rda]

For 12 years now, everyone has complained about balance and that PvE changes are ruining PvE. Can't blame them for trying a new

What templates have to do with separating PVE and PVP?

PS: Ah, got it, you are replying to a guy stating that these things should not have been separated.

[Linri]

templates are kind of annoying... here let me explain

Imagine if you are a raider, player A who raids very casually in LFR....and player B is a mythic raider, who raids countless hours each week to progress.

Now, imagine you enter a raid, for example a PUG raid.... and well... to make it fair, we are gonna give you a raid template... so you have the same stats.

that's what pvp templates are like.... rewarding laziness, and quelling players who play more.

granted, skill will come into play in both scenarios but, for players who pvped in the past got the gear, got the skill and were rewarded for their efforts

now... you only need to get rank 50, and never prestige... and basically... that's ur entire x pack in a nut shell if u are a pvper.

[Deleted]

Template is a failure in terms of how blizzard is using them atm, almost everytime something gets nerfed because of some mechanic it has that is way to strong (35% ms) and they nerf it with a stat nerf.

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templates are kind of annoying... here let me explain

Imagine if you are a raider, player A who raids very casually in LFR....and player B is a mythic raider, who raids countless hours each week to progress.

Now, imagine you enter a raid, for example a PUG raid.... and well... to make it fair, we are gonna give you a raid template... so you have the same stats.

that's what pvp templates are like.... rewarding laziness, and quelling players who play more.

granted, skill will come into play in both scenarios but, for players who pvped in the past got the gear, got the skill and were rewarded for their efforts

now... you only need to get rank 50, and never prestige... and basically... that's ur entire x pack in a nut shell if u are a pvper.

I don't think the honor talents are that bad and the grind is only anoying but you can do it kinda quickly, the biggest issue is the artifact weapon traits .

[Caolela]

For 12 years now, everyone has complained about balance and that PvE changes are ruining PvE. Can't blame them for trying a new direction.

"Trying a new direction"? Is that PR-speak for "After 10-11 years, we ran out of ways to drag the game out with the old system so here's "OMG Templates!1!" and "Gear Doesn't Matter!1!"?

A year since alpha and three months into the xpac, and after thousands of posts and suggestions from competent players we still have [insert half a dozen classes] messed up. Have you seen the 7.1.5 PTR threads? Next patch will be for many classes even worse.

Here's the deal: they don't want balance. Balance won't have you leaving your formerly decent main behind and rerolling the FotMs. Legion's system is just another buying of time to make you think that gee, if you just wait long enough this time they'll really get it right. Meanwhile keep paying that sub.

It's like when Lucy promises Charlie Brown that this year she won't yank the football away. And she's always lying.

[Tyrannica]

It wasn't trivial, no. And doing so still involved PvPing without PvP gear, which was perhaps the worst experience you could have in the game. There's no way I'm suffering through that garbage just so I can potentially have some fun by being on an even footing.

Seriously?! We are talking about WoD pvp gear, right?!

Have you ever bothered to get pvp gear in previous expansions, like TBC and Wotlk? These are still considered the best expansions to date. You had to even have a higher arena rating for some "normal" gladiator pvp pieces. Elite pvp gear not even considered, it did not exist! In additon you got it only via arena wins. No ashran or random bgs to help you out, or low arena rating farms with catchup mechanics.

I bet you never played TBC and WOTLK.....

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Giving people an option of customizing their gear is not a meaningful decision. Here are the reasons:
- there always is the best, cookie cutter build
- equipment from PvP is random, so actually getting your desired pieces would be just annoying (or even worse, it would require PvE)
- specs are balanced around their "best" variant (with the best gear choices and talents), since that's what everyone will end up with - so if you think your spec performs badly due to stat distribution, without that you'd just get a flat damage nerf to compensate for having better stats.

lack of gear customization just takes away of the mmorpg immersion, nuff said.

No need to discuss the balance here even, because in an rpg like game its non-existend no matter how you view it. there is and will no balance with pvp gear and there will and is no balance with pvp templates. Games like chess have true balance.

So in the end only fun matters(for a game anyways) and taking away customization options of your customized personal character you play, is just ridiculous in a MMORPG. It cannot work and will never work.

The results are: people stop playing ending their subs or switch to PvE without those hilarious restrictions.

[tikcol]

A complete and utter failure.

Templates should make PvP easier to balance, instead they brought the worst/unbalanced PvP WoW has ever witnessed

[Tyrannica]

For someone who casually PVPs (just random BGs) right now they are great. I used to PVP more in the past but when I don't have time to really dedicate to it, it's not fun. Being so out geared in a random BG isn't fun at all and made it really un-enjoyable. As a result I have had to choose between raiding and PVP, and raiding wins every time for me. Now that, to me it seems, PVP is more balanced I am on more level ground with everyone. I can go into a BG and generally be in the top 5-10 dmg overall for both factions. I am not completely bowled over by people in amazing gear. For my playstyle the templates are a success.

Now devil's advocate... for people who focus more on PVP vs PVE they may have lost something. Being able to out gear people and wreckface in open world PVP or own because of what you have invested in a BG may be lost. I can see why that may frustrate the people who focus on PVP as a primary thing in game.

yeah, if you are not in a raid guild you are out of luck, its very frustrating to pug even hc raids. Doing mythic is not possible without a guild. Some people play on a balanced faction sever to have indeed wpvp and it happens there, too. But raid gear triumphs once again. The few(0,5%) of people with high ilvl pvp gear never leave their sandbox arena, they are too occuppied for wpvp silly fun.

But thats hardly all.

I do not like the restriction of not choosing my own stats in instanced pvp. WoD system seemed perfect. Your ilvl was high with raid gear and pvp gear only upped the ilvl in pvp, so both raiders and pvpers are on equal footing without templates that are pretty much a buff for some specs and a nerf for others. Templates do not provide any balance, they only here for lazy folk that never gears up(pve or pvp gear does not matter with ilvl caps and pruned pvp resilience and pvp power)
And WoD PvP even provided a base ilvl on gear for fresh toons in instanced pvp like a random bg. Thats good enough for everyone! In both TBC and WOTLK the pvp system never showed mercy for the easy way, because there was noone!

There must be a friggin reasion why those 2 expansion were the best ones to date? And i found many of those reasons!
The game was balanced very differently in a way that not every class could do everything, no pruning and no babysit. You had to earn your stuff, back then. I think it motivated people more to do their content.
When you remember in Vanilla elite mobs while questing, even the leveling expierence motivated people. Nowdays people hate it, because it was made to easy.

Making stuff too easy to do, kills the game, because people stop to care anymore!

And while i am at it: PvP is not a minigame for dragonslayers that only want to put the least effort into it to be competitive!!!

Vice versa, pvp people cannot participate in mythic raids either with just a little effort, it needs well balanced high ilvl gear and lots of coordination. Instanced pvp like arenas and rbgs should be no different!

[xZerocidex]

Failure, isn't templates the reason why BM is ass right now?

It might give devs a better knob to tune the buffs and nerfs but they're doing a terrible job. One thing ppl need to remember that this is an mmorpg meaning you should have ways of gearing and stat planning your character out. Despite how ppl felt about WoD pvp least you had a steady gear progression that guaranteed you gear with the stats you desire.

The only way I think templates will be a success if they let the player play with the dials but I feel like that won't be happening anytime soon.

[kail]

Idea is fine, execution by Blizz shows incompetence.

And while i am at it: PvP is not a minigame for dragonslayers that only want to put the least effort into it to be competitive!!!

Vice versa, pvp people cannot participate in mythic raids either with just a little effort, it needs well balanced high ilvl gear and lots of coordination. Instanced pvp like arenas and rbgs should be no different!

You are comparing apples to oranges here. PvE is an environment where coordination and gear matter in order to tackle the content. PvP has little business requiring numbers in order to be competitive, it should be about knowing your class, knowing your enemy's class, and outplaying them. MMO or not, every other game that focuses on play competition tend to keep people on even playing fields, as it should. Be it shooters, MOBAs, and even some recent MMOs like GW2.

PvP does still have a progression system, honor talents and ranked ratings. Honor talents require a set amount of games to initially cap and any further progression is more rewards (like gold and AP)/cosmetics. IMO it should remain as cosmetics and simply up the amount of cosmetic rewards to keep the carrot alive.