This is why you can't take legendary complaints seriously...

[Deleted]

I thought we are talking about quite good guilds and not lfr but mythic progression. I was playing in 2 guilds this expansion. Now Im in pretty good one, 2 nights a week 7/7myth. Im ele shaman. I was pretty much at the top on every fight in 1st guild and im at the bottom now, especialy on ST fights. I still didnt have a chance to touch single target legendary and with them I woold be pretty much middle of the pack. Fortunately I have intelligent raid leader and he /w me after every raid how good my performance was. Needless to say most of them have bis legedaries and better specs. Cheers.

[TITAN308]

Of course someone who only raids heroic will be shit at the game. Can you atleast link logs to a relevant example?

You missed the point. From my experience, a majority of legendary complaints are coming from these sources.

And yet here you are posting random logs from a player who got those parses probably not logged by himself and in god knows what scenario. Look, I personally have some gray parses when something goes wrong, and orange parses of 95+ which is when I go full tryhard mode, which is an indicator of what I am CAPABLE of doing. There is a reason guilds ask you to link the logs of your choice when applying. Typing player's name in warcraft logs is in no way, shape or form a correct indicator of a player's maximum potential or something.

The link are averages. Unless you are saying every single time they raid something was out of their control? It even shows you their best logs up front.

when being 90% is something to brag about .... lol

Feel free to quote where I said it was, or that I was even a good player in general. I shared my own logs as stated for the pure sake of transparency. I am perfectly fine for hovering in the 70-80% average as I am not a progression raider. The point is I am under absolutely no delusion that getting a second BiS legendary is going to magically fix my own deficiencies.

[Deleted]

So because a bad player gets a bad legendary and complains, the complaint is not valid? Shitty system is shitty, no matter the quality of the player

I myself have a 90% percentile avg in EN mythic and i have what is 3rd and 4th best. Could I have a higher % with those 2? yeah sure - But if you swapped those 2 out for the 2 best, i would probably already be 99%.

[Synthium]

You missed the point. From my experience, a majority of legendary complaints are coming from these sources.



The link are averages. Unless you are saying every single time they raid something was out of their control? It even shows you their best logs up front.



Feel free to quote where I said it was, or that I was even a good player in general. I shared my own logs as stated for the pure sake of transparency. I am perfectly fine for hovering in the 70-80% average as I am not a progression raider. The point is I am under absolutely no delusion that getting a second BiS legendary is going to magically fix my own deficiencies.

1. It does not show you their best logs up front... it shows the public logs that god knows who logged. It shows literally attempts where you pugged and the fight lasted for 9 mins instead of 2. It shows the logs where you died in the first 45 seconds cause healers didn't heal ticking damage (eg Necrotic venom). When you type in my name in Warcraft logs, you would get a lot of green and blue parses with none orange, while I have several links in my bookmars doing 90+, even 95+.

2. A lot of the logs are from progression, where players don't do the most optimal damage or the best possible rotation or cheese strategy because they are trying to do the tactic perfectly so as not to wipe the raid.

3. The top 10-15 percentiles are from players with BiS legendaries and players who did something cheesy to pad the logs. I did it, they did it, everyone did it. Sometimes those aren't logged though, so those can also be excluded from public logs thus discrediting him even more?

Again, typing in a player's name in warcraftlogs and looking at his "pathetic green parses" is not an indicator if a player is good or not. If they cannot provide you with a single log of their own where they did 80+, THAT is an indicator.

[TITAN308]

1. It does not show you their best logs up front... it shows the public logs that god knows who logged. It shows literally attempts where you pugged and the fight lasted for 9 mins instead of 2. It shows the logs where you died in the first 45 seconds cause healers didn't heal ticking damage (eg Necrotic venom). When you type in my name in Warcraft logs, you would get a lot of green and blue parses with none orange, while I have several links in my bookmars doing 90+, even 95+.

2. A lot of the logs are from progression, where players don't do the most optimal damage or the best possible rotation or cheese strategy because they are trying to do the tactic perfectly so as not to wipe the raid.

3. The top 10-15 percentiles are from players with BiS legendaries and players who did something cheesy to pad the logs. I did it, they did it, everyone did it. Sometimes those aren't logged though, so those can also be excluded from public logs thus discrediting him even more?

Again, typing in a player's name in warcraftlogs and looking at his "pathetic green parses" is not an indicator if a player is good or not. If they cannot provide you with a single log of their own where they did 80+, THAT is an indicator.

That sounds like a whole bunch of excuses if you ask me. I have quite literally never seen any notable discrepancy between me personally recording logs and the raid leader recording them. I have reservations at taking anything you are saying as anything but anecdotal in regards to stuff magically missing in logs.

[Pokeypenguin]

And while I agree there are some valid concerns from a small percentage of the player base that pushes progression it never fails when I see a "I got two crap legendaries this is unacceptable!" complaints you inevitably find the player looks like this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/20407215/10/

Look I know its not popular opinion, but again, BiS legendaries are not going to magically make a shitty player good. This is a prime example of why Blizzard has to decide carefully how to handle changing this system, if a change is even warranted at all.

For the sake of being open and transparent I have one BiS and one crap. I am still a middle of the pack player who hovers on the border of 70-80% percentile. I am under no delusion that getting a second BiS is going to magically catapult me into the 90th percentile on fights. Practicing my rotation and building overall gear stats is what will help me inch closer to that top level of play.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/18063311/10/

Most players in mythic progression guilds are competitive, they enjoy the competition aspect of raiding. The competition factor involves clearing content faster then other guilds, and doing as much damage as possible on fights. Legendaries (and other gear decisions) put too much power in RNG and has damaged the competitive nature of raiding for many players. That's why people are upset, at least the people I know.

[snackfeat]

Heroic logs are not a proof of anything, get out of here.

[TITAN308]

Heroic logs are not a proof of anything, get out of here.

What does this statement have anything to do within context of my statement?

Or did you skip over the portion where I agree there are valid complaints on those small parts of the player base that actually do progression?

You are free to check the logs of people complaining on the forum, I think you'd be surprised the level of "progress" they are struggling on.

[Kraineth]

You say you are 70-80% but neither character you linked is in that range, so I assume you haven't bothered to link your character.

The demon hunter you linked is pretty undergeared and has only one legendary, which is terrible, and does very poorly.
The Ret you linked has the ring, which is very strong, and has semi decent rank percentiles.

Are these supposed to prove your point or completely counter it?

Given equal skill, legendaries make or break the competitive potential of a given player, and in a good majority of cases, straight up increase the damage a player does by a substantial amount without any additional thought being put into the rotation.

[RoKPaNda]

Method recently said they didn't replace players for not having the good legendaries, so really the complaints are invalid. Some people are just in shit guilds.

[TITAN308]

You say you are 70-80% but neither character you linked is in that range, so I assume you haven't bothered to link your character.

The demon hunter you linked is pretty undergeared and has only one legendary, which is terrible, and does very poorly.
The Ret you linked has the ring, which is very strong, and has semi decent rank percentiles.

Are these supposed to prove your point or completely counter it?

Given equal skill, legendaries make or break the competitive potential of a given player, and in a good majority of cases, straight up increase the damage a player does by a substantial amount without any additional thought being put into the rotation.

I think you need to go back and re-read because I am not sure what you are talking about.

The demon hunter example was someone who complained about getting two "shitty legendaries" but on average has a 16th percentile ranking @ iLevel875

The point is, people like this complaining, getting a BiS legendary isn't going to magically fix someone who is basically performing at the bottom of the barrel at that iLevel.

The ret is indeed my character, which I clearly stated (again, not sure how you are reading what I posted wrong).

Does the link not show you this?



Again, I also said there may be valid concerns from actual competitive progression people.

I feel like a broken record at this point. Is my English just terrible in the OP?

And just so we are clear, so I don't have to repeat myself, me complaining about not having all BiS Legendaries would be just as stupid as the demon hunter. The only thing holding back my rankings at my iLevel (880) is my own short comings as a player, not my gear.

[Deleted]

Method recently said they didn't replace players for not having the good legendaries, so really the complaints are invalid. Some people are just in shit guilds.

Except they forced people to go on their alts which did get good legendaries. How to circumvent the shitty legendary system? Have 5 characters of the same class, to maximise the chance you get a good one on one of them, and make that one your main. In mythic progress guilds that doesn't require people to maintain alts, what do you think happens there if their character gets Sephuz and Prydaz? They get benched. The number of guilds that can circumvent the system like Method is clearly in the minority here, so the complaints are still perfectly valid.

Even if we just forget the whole BiS legendary problem, the entire system is flawed ever since they decided to have both throughput and utility legendaries without being able to directly control which legendary you progress towards. For anyone that cares, seeing that legendary drop only leaves you with two feelings: Relief(throughput), indifference("good" utility), or dissapointment(Sephuz, Prydaz, Plate boots, Cloth boots, etc). For anyone that doesn't care, this discussion is not targeted towwards them. It is targerted towards the people that doesn't feel like they have any control over how their character progresses, relying on the roll of a die instead.

[Jonuts]

It's not an excuse for poor performance but getting shit Legendaries can certainly demotivate players from even bothering to try performing well.

That's a pretty huge one there. When you get something like Sephuz, it's brutally demotivating.

[TITAN308]

That's a pretty huge one there. When you get something like Sephuz, it's brutally demotivating.

Their own lack of ability to learn to play better should be far more motivating than getting a legendary. On the same token them playing like shit should be more demoralizing than getting a shitty legendary.

Its not a Blizzard problem, its a player problem. Blizzard can't program a fix to this.

A player learning to be better would be like equipping 10 BiS legendaries for some of these people, why they put so much emphesis on a single (or even double BiS) is beyond me.

Its like people who strip down the interior of a car to save 100lbs to gain 2 horsepower, but the driver themselves weigh 350lbs.

[Pokeypenguin]

Their own lack of ability to learn to play better should be far more motivating than getting a legendary. On the same token them playing like shit should be more demoralizing than getting a shitty legendary.

Its not a Blizzard problem, its a player problem. Blizzard can't program a fix to this.

A player learning to be better would be like equipping 10 BiS legendaries for some of these people, why they put so much emphesis on a single (or even double BiS) is beyond me.

Its like people who strip down the interior of a car to save 100lbs to gain 2 horsepower, but the driver themselves weigh 350lbs.

They could fix it very easily. Any of these would work.

1. Remove exponentially decreasing drop rate, so that players who play a decent ammount simply get all of them fairly quickly.
2. Make them all utility.
3. Let players choose the ones they want.

[TITAN308]

They could fix it very easily. Any of these would work.

1. Remove exponentially decreasing drop rate, so that players who play a decent ammount simply get all of them fairly quickly.
2. Make them all utility.
3. Let players choose the ones they want.

And how does that address the point that shit players with good legendaries are still shit players?

Or is this basically just "feel good" policy you are advocating?

[Jonuts]

Their own lack of ability to learn to play better should be far more motivating than getting a legendary. On the same token them playing like shit should be more demoralizing than getting a shitty legendary.

Its not a Blizzard problem, its a player problem. Blizzard can't program a fix to this.

A player learning to be better would be like equipping 10 BiS legendaries for some of these people, why they put so much emphesis on a single (or even double BiS) is beyond me.

Its like people who strip down the interior of a car to save 100lbs to gain 2 horsepower, but the driver themselves weigh 350lbs.

1: I didn't say anything about motivating, I said demotivating. In a perfect world, everyone would be highly motivated to constantly improve themselves and help others improve themselves too. We don't live in one. What motivation you got to really improve in World of Warcraft can easily be kidney punched in the dick by getting absolute trash tier legendaries. Especially when you consider that other than the bug at the beginning of the expansion, getting a legendary reduces your chances of getting a future legendary. The system as is isn't terrible. Calling it terrible would be a god damn compliment to it.

2: Just because some players are so god damn bad that learning to press the right button would be a large increase for them than a BiS legendary doesn't mean that, mathematically speaking, getting a BiS legendary isn't a huge boost solely granted by RNG. Which you only have a few limited tries to get before your chance of earning another legendary is on par with your chance of winning the power ball.

3: 150 pounds or 350 pounds, when you strip out 100 pounds of shit out of your car, you strip out 100 pounds of shit out of your car. I don't get it man. It's not like that extra 100 pounds in savings is suddenly irrelevant. Sure, still 200 pounds heavier than if you only weighed 150, but that's better than 300 pounds heavier.

[TITAN308]

1: I didn't say anything about motivating, I said demotivating. In a perfect world, everyone would be highly motivated to constantly improve themselves and help others improve themselves too. We don't live in one. What motivation you got to really improve in World of Warcraft can easily be kidney punched in the dick by getting absolute trash tier legendaries. Especially when you consider that other than the bug at the beginning of the expansion, getting a legendary reduces your chances of getting a future legendary. The system as is isn't terrible. Calling it terrible would be a god damn compliment to it.

2: Just because some players are so god damn bad that learning to press the right button would be a large increase for them than a BiS legendary doesn't mean that, mathematically speaking, getting a BiS legendary isn't a huge boost solely granted by RNG. Which you only have a few limited tries to get before your chance of earning another legendary is on par with your chance of winning the power ball.

3: 150 pounds or 350 pounds, when you strip out 100 pounds of shit out of your car, you strip out 100 pounds of shit out of your car. I don't get it man. It's not like that extra 100 pounds in savings is suddenly irrelevant. Sure, still 200 pounds heavier than if you only weighed 150, but that's better than 300 pounds heavier.

The entire point is Blizzard being careful and not overdoing any changes because shit players make up the vocal community. If they end up changing it, its their game, hooray, I only hope they don't make changes based on shit feedback and shit players.

[shaunika123]

Now compare an Unholy DK with and without their BIS Legendary.

or a sub rogue

[Dug]

Method (actual good players and not the wannabes) said they don't even bench players over legendaries. "B-but they gotta use their alts!" you say. Since when have cutting edge mythic raiders not managed multiple highly geared toons simultaneously?

The arbitrary "requirements" the raiding community face are brought about by the same community.