7.1.5 Mastery Unholy Thread

[seussiii]

I am online during the EU time zone and i rarely to never have a bad run on the unholy discord. I even spend most of my time today giving advice in between some person crying for attention and throwing in childish retorts.

Again just telling you what i saw in the channel and what anyone can see displayed right in the pinned notes. It's obviously a problem and there was plenty more that I didn't bother quoting to save the spam.

His post is full of misinformation, it's not only not substantiated by anything other than the claim there's napkin math somewhere.

Just like he mentioned... I don't see any math...from either side. I see...

"This works"
"No it doesn't...check these sims" Sims which are of a completely different talent setup. If you really wanted to compare and cut out the fluff you could sim both builds.

Yes i went after his talking points since they were wrong at a basic level, None of this is a personal attack. If someone claims 1+1 = 3 and you say it's false you aren't attacking the person you are going after his claim, if he was right of his case he could have easily came back and provided us a basis to work from.

You never personally attacked him. I don't think anyone ever claimed that. But there are ways to go about criticism. You can be constructive...or you can take little jabs and be sarcastic. Which does what exactly? Its just negative garbage and makes people want to not go out of their way expand the community. I agree that you should question his logic but not in the manner you did it.

...i dare to bet i'll get more chest thumbing stubbornness and probably a personal attack. Not to mention it is fairly idiotic to claim a person who worked on the current unholy document, which for your knowledge are old but not out of date since nothing was changed from 7.0 to 7.1 that would require a guide update of any kind, to be lacking in credibility when he personally is neither know and has yet to provide any work to show others he both knows his class and/or can provide a good document.

Again you are hurting your argument with these passive aggressive jabs about his "stubbornness" and potentially idiotic claims. I'm still wondering where this 7.0 detailed guide is at and how something that hasn't been updated in so long is taking into account these new 7.1.5 changes. I can see it being relevant as of 7.1 but it will definitely need to be updated as of 7.1.5

So before you @seussiii claim others are attacking him, i invite you to point out at post where he came back and provided us with anything that would proof his claim and opened this discussion at one point he claims it's an open discussion at another point he resorts to attack an actual theory crafter based again on not being fully aware of certain setups in this spec that have been present for months.

I cant speak for him. He might. He might not come back with support. Fact is it's just good to have the discussion and he never claimed to have the math broken down... several times. Unless im missing something though (and please correct me if im wrong) Those sims dont overwhelmingly convince me that OPs build isn't viable or competitive once 7.1.5 drops. It just shows us the results of the build the simmer ran.

It would be much better to come into this post seeing the potential and testing it vs just shooting the idea down and being a detriment to the DK community. If you are afraid that it is misinformation and want to shut it down...well as an outsider to the class... just saying "no that wont work" won't convince anyone.

I have been a member of many class discords and forums. There is a big diff between how this thread was received and how many other head theorycrafters treat people with questions or challenges to the current standard.

[Acidbaron]

The pinned notes from one administrator is not a representation of the average user, not to mention it says more about you by utilizing this to define a chat group your are not familiar to or even part of, seeing your contact with teh channel is limited to that.

7.1.5 final information will be there when ptr is finalized not before, on the first page you can find the simulations providing support to the strongest talent setups come current ptr iteration for multiple setups, you can access those setups and see for yourself in simulation craft. You are aware that these are the highest possible simulation setups do you think people just randomly come up with these and don't test other combinations before labeling these things as highest possible setups, surely you can't truly believe that? if you do that would explain a lot again why you dismiss this so easily and brings me to the following..

You don't find the simulations ran to be any proof, yet you don't hold the OP which up to even that standard you hold up to others, willing to believe that on a mere say so, would have to say your bias is showing since like him you simply handwave things, what either means you are merely here for the sake of having an argument or you don't really seem to be aware of what people are talking about, what really seems to be case here otherwise you wouldn't make the statement that those simulations don't dismiss his setup as "the best".

You want to push forward an idea, any sort of idea and claiming it will the "way to go" you could at very least do something like this http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mber-25th-2016 and post some sort of results, we don't even have that here. No forum discord would react kindly to attitude displayed here by the OP then again you seem alright with that attitude when displayed from one side but not from the other.

Anyway you know what, anyone that believes that festering strike is simply there as a physical damage source can go ahead and believe this, seeing you are more interested in debating how positive the thread should be rather than it's contents. You're free to go and run with this, i made my point if people want to go and run with the wrong thing they are free to do so.

[Maxweii]

I'm not even guna bother going back and quoting anything from this, beyond one post.

Maxweii, how about instead of wholesale slamming on this guide you do one of two things: a.) write your own guide or b.) do a point by point on this guide.

The whole reason we have these forums is to have productive conversations about gameplay. I am very grateful for all your hard work on the new UH builds as it's the build I've wanted to play since launch; why not share your insights? Waiting for the final build?

I've more or less written the basis of a guide, giving multitudes of builds and explaining un-biasly what is doing better. This is all based on stuff in the PTR, meaning writing a guide before we even know the drop date of the 7.1.5 patch is useless. Likely I will write one, but I'm not wasting my time now when something could come in another build and toss everything up in the air.
Doing a point by point of this guide would take up far too long, and it's just generally not worth it. His "guide" is based on feelcrafting and as such has nothing you should rely on.


First off @Acidbaron thank you for explaining stuff and also mentioning the reasoning why stuff like what I do is more credible than this.

But in general, this thread is a joke. Someone posts a random build, with feelcraft and nothing to back it up beyond that, gives it a fancy name and when people with actual proof about how to play the playstyle that is being put forth they get shot down because "they don't have proof"? Not worth my time in the slightest to try to explain stuff like this to people. My work speaks for itself, I make it transparent and allow people to use the profiles/setups I used so they can retest things for themselves. Nothing more needs to be done on my part beyond people reading stuff, and comprehending it.

[seussiii]

Why would you assume that I'm not holding OP to certain standards?

Believe me. I'm skeptical as hell...for both sides. Why? I'm new to the class and am still learning myself. Because of this...I'm in no real position to tell someone they are wrong. At the same time though I'm not claiming a side is right. My observation is that no one is laying out clear cut figures for either argument.

The only reason I may appear biased is due to negative comments....and I wasn't alone OR unreasonable when taking the position that we could have gone on without them.

Regarding the sims...

The problem here is that there is too much assumption going on.

You are aware that these are the highest possible simulation setups do you think people just randomly come up with these and don't test other combinations before labeling these things as highest possible setups

That's a little extreme. I don't assume anything when it comes to theorycrafting. However it looks like I overlooked a section of this CSvsCast comparison guide...

The combinations of talents shown include each possible combination of talents when swapping out level 56, 90 and 100 talents. Pestilent Pustules and Blighted Rune Weapon also swapped, with Epidemic being skipped in the ST/AoE sims.

This confuses me because being that Maxweii apparently ran simulations of most of the potential CS talent combos (minus epidemic)... it would have been much easier to just point out that he already ran said simulations.

Side note: Maybe someone can speak up on this. I know Simc APLs have to be updated by the community in order to ensure accurate results. This is hugely important for 7.1.5 theorycrafting. Were these simulations done with that in mind? The APLs contain quite a bit of info regarding the actual rotation/priority for a specific spec.

if the same APLs were used for both talent builds then the results would not be accurate and actually favor the current cast build. A build like Shadowman's would shake up the rotation enough to needs its own APL i'd think. I COULD BE WRONG but this came to mind...

[Maxweii]

This confuses me because being that Maxweii apparently ran simulations of most of the potential CS talent combos (minus epidemic)... it would have been much easier to just point out that he already ran said simulations.

Side note: Maybe someone can speak up on this. I know Simc APLs have to be updated by the community in order to ensure accurate results. This is hugely important for 7.1.5 theorycrafting. Were these simulations done with that in mind? The APLs contain quite a bit of info regarding the actual rotation/priority for a specific spec.

if the same APLs were used for both talent builds then the results would not be accurate and actually favor the current cast build. A build like Shadowman's would shake up the rotation enough to needs its own APL i'd think. I COULD BE WRONG but this came to mind...

The guide, which I linked, explains in detail how the sims were done, what was used and wasn't used, and explains how each talent setup is done. The current Nighthold Premade character setup was also tweaked by me to optimize it, and in general there's been little work from others regarding talent setups beyond what I've done. Actual work has been done, thoroughly, and when people come around with a guide like this that essentially undermines such work, it's important it gets noted that stuff like what was made here isn't worth your time since the work that went into it isn't well, work.

The current Simc APL support CS use just fine, has since launch of legion. It has a seperate line for Castigator so that it accounts for that but the baseline APL does support CS.

[Deleted]

sores >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aws or ebon fever

[Nezia]

Second, as an outsider thats new to the class and has been an active part in probably 6-7 different discord spec channels... UH has to be the worst.

Interesting point, actually this is one of the reasons why dks never trully shine, there has never been a really good theorycrafter for dks as there are for mages or rogues, it was pretty funny when everybody was running defile on wod because the sims said bos sucked, too bad nobody actually cared to check the sims to notice that it was only able to keep bos up for 4 or 5 seconds.

[Maxweii]

Interesting point, actually this is one of the reasons why dks never trully shine, there has never been a really good theorycrafter for dks as there are for mages or rogues, it was pretty funny when everybody was running defile on wod because the sims said bos sucked, too bad nobody actually cared to check the sims to notice that it was only able to keep bos up for 4 or 5 seconds.

Back when you're referencing to Defile was better, it was later nerfed along with NP and as such Breath became top (also Breath worked best with the ring).

[Nezia]

Back when you're referencing to Defile was better, it was later nerfed along with NP and as such Breath became top (also Breath worked best with the ring).

By the time the ring came out defile was already dead because the sims had been corrected and NP had been fixed(the bug where using blood boil would delay NP ticks).

I'm talking about the very start of the expansion, highmal ~ brf times, during like 3 or so months literaly EVERYONE was running defile only because sims said it was better, and that was only because the sims would keep bos up for 4 or 5 seconds, while in the real game it was easy to keep it up for at least 13 seconds.

And here comes my point, unholy is complex enough to need a good theorycrafter to make the mats and discover what is best, but we don't have that, never had, we always had a lot of flawed sims and "I think" action, never some trully consistent guide with solid math and stuff.

[Piz813]

Not sure if I missed it but what relics would be best? Been out of the uh loop for a while

[Acidbaron]

Not sure if I missed it but what relics would be best? Been out of the uh loop for a while

Dark crusade remains the top, there's a ranking list on the dk discord simply go to the bot channel and type !unholyrelic or relics

don't have access to discord right this moment.

[gixxpunk]

3330022: 518469 dps
1230023: 542317 dps

So this build is 4.6% behind 1230023 (T19M_NH profile) with current APL in simc. Shadowman 747 could you please provide the APL needed to make it viable or even pull ahead? Would be a nice addition to simc. The overall picture is already comparable as only the 6% aura stuff is currently missing in simc for 7.1.5.

[VakeStorm]

@Maxweii I see you're running a CS build right now. Granted it's a modification to the cookie-cutter CAST build, but is there a reason for this? Is there a sweet spot one can hit on live with mastery that outperforms the CAST build? Or is this only a thing if you haven't had the bracers drop? Or is your combo of legendaries better than bracers if you can get to a particular mastery level?

I am excited for the potential we'll have with the 7.1.5 changes. I've never liked playing with CAST but I got lucky with bracers and it has been the way to go for me. While the PTR isn't finalized do you see a split in viability for UH builds or do you think we'll all play the mastery build regardless of what legendaries we've had drop?