Make PvP Great Again

[Professor Expert]

Mobility:
Some classes have too much, some not enough. I get the idea that there needs to be a cat-and-mouse type of deal between ranged and melee, but let's compare a warrior's mobility to something like a ret paladin, monk, or feral. Fair deal? No, I think we can agree that in terms of mobility ret paladins are in the crapper while warriors are arguably at the top of the heap. Somewhere in the middle you have my class, enhance shaman, which has bad mobility but not the worst. As far as melee go I think ret paladins got the shortest end of the stick.

Damage:
Believe it or not, potential single target damage is consistent among all classes. The differences lie in the ability to deliver said damage in a pvp setting, where frequent movement, CC and avoidance are necessary elements in addition to simply applying your attacks. Melee and non-casters have a big advantage right now. If you have to stand and cast, you are going to get mad...very mad...if you draw the attention of any melee.

CCs:
It's really time to take a hard look at the excessive "loss of control" CC in the game. The DR for CC within instanced pvp should be based upon the team sizes, which means that larger team sizes result in more aggressive DR. This allows them to preserve "balance" for 3v3 while addressing the issue of mindless CC spam in battlegrounds.

Healing:
In most situations it feels like healing is fairly tuned. It's not too good, it's not weak. MW monks are a problem in pvp, and rdruids are still a bit too good since they can heal effectively without casting...aside from that, can't really complain.

[FarmI3oy]

I think many people including myself relate all the problems of PVP back to utility spells or what some are calling "non-damage" buttons. CC, Damage, Mobility and even Healing were just part of a larger game being played back in previous expansions.

[Sithalos]

"Again" assumes that it was ever great to begin with.

[Phookah]

How to make pvp great: Go play a game designed for pvp

[SHOWT1M3]

For me it's the CC, way too much CC. It becomes a dance of jumping in and out of CC.

I remember the days when everyone mainly had 1 form of CC, maybe a stun or maybe only a slow. Some classes had more but usually no more then 2.

PVP was more about who could dps who faster or kite better instead of who has more stuns, slows and fears.

[Flaks]

Compares ret mobility to warriors. Fails to realize ret shits on warriors sideways in pvp right now. No, ret deserves NO buffs to mobility. It has the most utility in the game by far. If we are talking about some classes being shafted it's warriors with 0 relevant healing/self-sustain. But again as of 7.1.5 they'll be fine with the utility they're getting. Too bad all the mobility still won't make up for the horrible self sustain.

[Trapmastery]

"Make *named* great again!" is getting old and dull.

[Sunlighthell]

They will not fire Holinka so pvp would obviously suck for whole Legion. Melee fest will continue because balance is made by some jerk who don't even play the game. Want to know how bad Holinka as game designer? Go to Ashran. I mean try to get here. Because first thing you'll need to overcome is 24h+ queu. And when you'll get here you'll realise that almost all pvp items that drop from ashran couldn't be used because they're greyed out, yeah, right, ashran pvp items couldn't be used in instanced pvp.

[Orangetai420]

How to make pvp great: Go play a game designed for pvp

Overwatch is really fun if you have friends.

[Terahertz]

The only way they can make PvP great again is if they added depth to classes again. There's barely any depth left for many classes. The biggest killer was WoD in this regard where they made PvP hyper responsive which made it harder to actually outplay people by countering their abilities.

CC isn't the issue because of this. It's the lack of counter to said CC. I think WoW PvP would do well if there were animation times on some abilities similar to Storm Bolt's projectile time. It would allow for anticipating abilities and countering them in some situations. Even if you currently anticipate an ability, because of the hyper responsive gameplay it makes it near impossible to properly counter such an ability.

They also seriously messed things up with the amount of AoE abilities there are. There are way too many high damaging AoE abilities.

Farm13oy is also right. There are way too few utility abilities anymore. It's just a PvE mess right now with random CC being thrown into the mix.

The biggest killer though is honestly the lack of depth classes right now. The skill ceiling has gone down drastically and so has the skill floor.

One last thing: Damage is also -way- too spammy. This isn't even necessarily an issue in PvP, but also PvE. So many classes have such spammy rotations now which also translates badly into PvP. There's barely any down time to some classes their DPS rotation. Classes shouldn't be able to spam damage in PvP IMO. They should have noticeable moments of down time but when they DO actually decide to do damage, it should be considerable outside of cooldowns.

[Thelxi]

At this point damage, healing and CC tuning is the least of pvp's problems.

[Jinxz]

The only way they can make PvP great again is if they added depth to classes again. There's barely any depth left for many classes. The biggest killer was WoD in this regard where they made PvP hyper responsive which made it harder to actually outplay people by countering their abilities.

CC isn't the issue because of this. It's the lack of counter to said CC. I think WoW PvP would do well if there were animation times on some abilities similar to Storm Bolt's projectile time. It would allow for anticipating abilities and countering them in some situations. Even if you currently anticipate an ability, because of the hyper responsive gameplay it makes it near impossible to properly counter such an ability.

They also seriously messed things up with the amount of AoE abilities there are. There are way too many high damaging AoE abilities.

Farm13oy is also right. There are way too few utility abilities anymore. It's just a PvE mess right now with random CC being thrown into the mix.

The biggest killer though is honestly the lack of depth classes right now. The skill ceiling has gone down drastically and so has the skill floor.

One last thing: Damage is also -way- too spammy. This isn't even necessarily an issue in PvP, but also PvE. So many classes have such spammy rotations now which also translates badly into PvP. There's barely any down time to some classes their DPS rotation. Classes shouldn't be able to spam damage in PvP IMO. They should have noticeable moments of down time but when they DO actually decide to do damage, it should be considerable outside of cooldowns.

This. /10chars

[Hooligun]

What I don't like about PVP is being able to customize our character. We are stuck with these "templates". A game that revolves around gear and customizing your character to do what you want has been taken away.

This expansion has way too much RNG with the legendaries, not too mention the Artifact Power addition is an alt killer.
I do not understand why Blizzard has constantly been moving this game away from what makes it so great.... customization. If 2 or 3 specific classes continue to dominate like this without "balancing" (the whole reason for the templates), there is no reason to PvP . You cannot do anything to counter it. I am very disappointed in this expansion. It had great hope and ideas, but fell short by taking away one thing that drove you to play (in PVP).... customization with gearing.

[Deleted]

Balance issues are only a minor issue on the grander topic of why pvp is in such a bad state.

[Deleted]

Is ST dmg output really equal?

I'm pretty sure I can dish out more single target dmg on my alt DK or DH than I can on my monk

[Ausr]

Truthfully, my problems with pvp are these:

1) Unless you're a paladin tank, go fuck yourself.

2) Why are DPS more durable than tanks, have amazing heals, plus do the damage they can do? Take that shit away. Take that survivability away and take the healing away. You shouldn't have it all.

3) Healers are fine. Should be squishier but that's about it.

[Saberstrike]

Vote Donald Trump lead PvP dev! Make Arena great again! WE'LL BUILD A WALL AND MAKE DRAGONSLAYERS PAY FOR IT!

[Deleted]

The problem with current PvP has two faces, for me.

And let me preface this with saying that in NO circumstances classes should be made equal.
Classes should be different in order to have a diverse, healthy PvP environment. Things went to the gutter the second Restoshamans got a magic dispel, and Rets and Ferals got a kick.

1.
The unreliability of rewards
PvP used to have meaningful choices regarding what you could get and what to aim for.
This is not in regards to gear alone, but titles and goals aswell: by getting certain gear, certain comps, certain X, you were able to aim for Y even as the season was progressing.

Now this is removed, and PvP rewards are both tainted by rng - the dumbest thing ever is getting two stacks of mana potions on a Warrior - and uncertainty about the rewards at the end of the season.

This damages PvP at all levels.
In the past, players were lured to PvP for competition or just to round out their gear by getting this or that piece, sometimes for cosmetic value alone. Some stuck around, some did not.
Those who stuck around made for the basis of the PvP community, and this "generational exchange" is extremely healthy for any scene.

Now that rewards are random and in some cases plain bad, there's literally no reason for those who maybe roll some m+ a week to do PvP. The gear they get from a failed +3 key is already better and guaranteed than what they could possibly gain by any form of reward gained in the 1600 bracket.
Provided they win of course.

2.
The lack of control on one's own character performance
In the past, there used to be a number of gearsets that could be used in certain situations.
In Wrath, which is considered by most the apex of the PvP experience, Discipline Priests used to run two extremely different gearsets depending on playstile preference and/or comp.

Nowadays the only thing that matters is itemlevel, and statistics are streamlined following a template that the player has no control on.

To boot, there's really too much time spent between leveling a character to the cap and being able to fully enjoy its basic performances in a PvP instance.
Aside from the obvious gearing up, which is core to an MMO, and the artifact grind, there's the honor talents grind AND the prestige levels on top of that.

But here's the thing: some base talents are unusable in PvP, and some PvP talents have no place in PvP aswell. The system is not balanced.

And on top of all of this, some specs are completely relying on some statistics, but their templates offers ever so little.
When classes weren't equal (as they should), gear was able to act as the great equalizer in performance.

Now, in complete fairness, in the past gear was a great element of imbalance aswell, and the PvP community has been very very vocal for gear not to matter in any form of competitive PvP.
But in the current incarnation, where PvP gear doesn't matter at all, no matter the type of content one engages in, this position has been taken way too far and isn't healthy for PvP itself.

So, what's the solution? +TLDR
WoD, as flawed as it was, did a lot of things right as far as PvP itemization goes.
Legion, to some extent, has aswell with the cosmetic mounts for PvP world quests and the Prestige Warhorse.
Have the two system coexist. Allow players to choose what they get.

Implement stat sliders so that it's up to Blizzard to decide the stat budget, but it's the player's decision which stats to get.
Guild Wars 2 does it with talismans containing certain combination of stats. It works amazing. Copy that if nothing else.

Bake PvP talents in one's baseline kit.
It's completely senseless that a Warrior can't have Spell Reflection until level 110 honor level N+1. And this goes for a lot of classes.
Make a separate tree, but make it work in open world if there's the possibility it could hurt any PvE environment.
Allow for creativity, it will make players invested in their classes and talent to show, so that new players can set goals for themselves and veterans and geniuses can set the trend.

Make WoW great again.

[Deleted]

For me it is the gear progression- the rewards are so random that it annoy me.
I know I can't complain as I gotten one legendary from pvp (weight of the world), but as a way to gear it is to unreliable. Sure we get something with ilvl based on last weeks highest rating, but getting same slot for weeks and weeks are awful.
Bring back conquest points from rates pvp and gear with rating requirement from vendors.

[Professor Expert]

Compares ret mobility to warriors. Fails to realize ret shits on warriors sideways in pvp right now. No, ret deserves NO buffs to mobility. It has the most utility in the game by far. If we are talking about some classes being shafted it's warriors with 0 relevant healing/self-sustain. But again as of 7.1.5 they'll be fine with the utility they're getting. Too bad all the mobility still won't make up for the horrible self sustain.

Are you denying that warrior mobility is vastly superior to ret, and even most melee in the game? Because it is. Mobility not an issue in ret v warr since both are melee and neither are trying to get away from each other.

I beat rets more than half of the time on my enhance shaman, and have a more difficult time with warriors, and beat them about half of the time using most of my CDs. Warriors already have spammable high-damage abilities, CCs, defensives and self-heals. It sounds to me like you want to be indestructible. Warriors stomp casters quite effectively now, and the purpose was to illustrate the melee mobility gaps that really shouldn't exist. Warriors should have less; other melee a little more. None should be "unpeelable" and none should be "free kite kills".

The only way they can make PvP great again is if they added depth to classes again. There's barely any depth left for many classes. The biggest killer was WoD in this regard where they made PvP hyper responsive which made it harder to actually outplay people by countering their abilities.

CC isn't the issue because of this. It's the lack of counter to said CC. I think WoW PvP would do well if there were animation times on some abilities similar to Storm Bolt's projectile time. It would allow for anticipating abilities and countering them in some situations. Even if you currently anticipate an ability, because of the hyper responsive gameplay it makes it near impossible to properly counter such an ability.

They also seriously messed things up with the amount of AoE abilities there are. There are way too many high damaging AoE abilities.

Farm13oy is also right. There are way too few utility abilities anymore. It's just a PvE mess right now with random CC being thrown into the mix.

The biggest killer though is honestly the lack of depth classes right now. The skill ceiling has gone down drastically and so has the skill floor.

One last thing: Damage is also -way- too spammy. This isn't even necessarily an issue in PvP, but also PvE. So many classes have such spammy rotations now which also translates badly into PvP. There's barely any down time to some classes their DPS rotation. Classes shouldn't be able to spam damage in PvP IMO. They should have noticeable moments of down time but when they DO actually decide to do damage, it should be considerable outside of cooldowns.

Agree with this. These things are all by design. They keep on telling us that they need to simplify classes for our benefit, but in reality it's just so they can lessen their workload and milk the player base for profits as long as they can. I don't see them reversing the trend of homogenization and class simplification.

How to make pvp great: Go play a game designed for pvp

Who says I don't? We're talking about WoW here and not other games.

Balance issues are only a minor issue on the grander topic of why pvp is in such a bad state.

Is ST dmg output really equal?

I'm pretty sure I can dish out more single target dmg on my alt DK or DH than I can on my monk

Burst potential are where you will find discrepancies...but overall single target DPS levels off to be about the same for all classes. For example, in 3v3 as enhance if I choose ascendance and get a proc, pop heroism and artifact weapon, I can put out 300K-400K DPS for 15 sec. If it doesn't result in a kill, the average DPS will quickly level off within a minute or so, because choosing the ascendance talent means giving up an ~8% buff to damage at all times.

For me it is the gear progression- the rewards are so random that it annoy me.
I know I can't complain as I gotten one legendary from pvp (weight of the world), but as a way to gear it is to unreliable. Sure we get something with ilvl based on last weeks highest rating, but getting same slot for weeks and weeks are awful.
Bring back conquest points from rates pvp and gear with rating requirement from vendors.

Yeah, the gear-in-a-box thing is annoying, especially when you get the same piece of gear multiple times. I'd rather be able to purchase gear from a vendor as before. I enjoyed doing this and gave a good reason to do arena. Now I really just do random BGs or world quest pvp for fun. PvE gear is better than PvP gear in all situations because of the template thing in instanced pvp.