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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is more personal bias and heresay rather than racism to be honest, you want a society which treats everybody the same. But ultimately it is nothing more but an illusion that has never worked and will never work, for the mere fact that people have different opinions and values, which then cause disagreements, distrust, bias and sometimes hatred.
    "Personal bias" has no place in police work either. I agree that the job is not easy, but we have to strive for the best we can as a society. We are a constitutional state and cannot allow kin liability. We mustn't judge someone by his looks or his origin and have to question our own prejudice every day. And it doesn't matter if people from the Maghreb states are 20% or 50% more criminal, they have their rights protected until they commit a crime and are convicted. It's the polices job to respect their rights as well, not just those of white people. We believe in universal human rights for a reason, these are not restricted by arbitrary lines on the map.

    Some people come here to abuse their right of asylum or just to steal and molest people, noone is denying that. But we have to judge this case by case, generalizations have no place in jurisdiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    No, it's not. They searched Germans as well as north africans. It just so happens that the media spins this into the Revenge of the Germans story and now everyone thinks we're back to the old ways. We're not. We're just finally starting to enforce the law that already exists, disproving every shitposter on here that says Germany is too lax.
    Racial profiling IS illegal in every EU state (in the US as well afaik). It's just near impossible to prove and to enforce.

    As i said, i agree that the police was in a very difficult situation, which they could have handled much worse. We will never now whether the celebrations were quiet because of their good work or because noone wanted to go there after last year's excesses. But we need to have an ongoing debate about this topic to improve.
    Last edited by XDurionX; 2017-01-04 at 12:13 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Keep living in your fantasy world while the rest of us try to face reality. You right wingers keep betraying the european values you claim to defend.
    Ok, so tell me... is structural racism the new buzzword? Where did you pick it up? Btw, I just saw an all Turk police car patrol the neighbourhood before Christmas. So much for structural racism.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    "Personal bias" has no place in police work either. I agree that the job is not easy, but we have to strive for the best we can as a society. We are a constitutional state and cannot allow kin liability. We mustn't judge someone by his looks or his origin and have to question our own prejudice every day. And it doesn't matter if people from the Maghreb states are 20% or 50% more criminal, they have their rights protected until they commit a crime and are convicted. It's the polices job to respect their rights as well, not just those of white people.

    Some people come here to abuse their right of asylum or just to steal and molest people, noone is denying that. But we have to judge this case by case, generalizations have no place in jurisdiction.
    If you want to be completely objective you have to remove the human factor, because every last human is biased, there is no such thing as real objectivity. That is a simple fact of life, what you want is an utopia. As long as bias does not cross into racism it is fine and the police clearly hasn't crossed the line in this case.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    We're just finally starting to enforce the law that already exists, disproving every shitposter on here that says Germany is too lax.
    Ordnung muss sein!

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    "Personal bias" has no place in police work either. I agree that the job is not easy, but we have to strive for the best we can as a society. We are a constitutional state and cannot allow kin liability. We mustn't judge someone by his looks or his origin and have to question our own prejudice every day. And it doesn't matter if people from the Maghreb states are 20% or 50% more criminal, they have their rights protected until they commit a crime and are convicted. It's the polices job to respect their rights as well, not just those of white people.

    Some people come here to abuse their right of asylum or just to steal and molest people, noone is denying that. But we have to judge this case by case, generalizations have no place in jurisdiction.

    Racial profiling IS illegal in every EU state (in the US as well afaik). It's just near impossible to prove and to enforce.
    Racial profiling is illegal, I never denied that. But this isn't a case of racial profiling. If you had read up on the case instead of talking out of your arse, you'd have read that these were checkpoints everyone went through and that Germans were picked up as well as north africans. It's just that the proportions were different. Where you even admit that their crime rate is higher, you don't make the connection to see that their being detained should also be congruently higher. What you're essentially saying is that you think it's wrong to detain someone just because he happens to be on the shitlist of the police, because he was at the very same spot a major crime happened a year earlier.

    Newsflash: The police does have the authority to issue verbal send-offs if they think the abstract danger level you present is high enough. That is what happened. None of them was detained for longer than necessary unless they were looked for based on criminal charges. So stop getting your pants in a twist and let the police do their job.

    As much as I have defended our policies in the past year, people like you are making it difficult for me to explain to these curious foreigners why we're able to do what we're doing. They say we're lax, I'm telling them we're not, and when the police does their job, you start talking some bullshit about racial profiling. Stop reading Bild, it destroys brain cells. Literally.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Ordnung muss sein!
    Damn right.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so tell me... is structural racism the new buzzword? Where did you pick it up? Btw, I just saw an all Turk police car patrol the neighbourhood before Christmas. So much for structural racism.
    It's neither new nor a buzzword. In younger history we have always struggling with this, i don't have to go back to WW2, or to top level Nazis taking public jobs after the war. The NSU cases showed that is very much alive in these days. Vanishing files, accused victims, authorities looking away when dwellings are burning or Neonazis are chasing and beating up refugees. You just have to watch the news every single day. Just ask a random non-white person about their experience with the police. Just because neither you ( i assume you're as white as me) nor i have experienced this doesn't mean it isn't there.

    https://www.mut-gegen-rechte-gewalt....walt-seit-1990
    Last edited by XDurionX; 2017-01-04 at 12:29 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    "Personal bias" has no place in police work either. I agree that the job is not easy, but we have to strive for the best we can as a society. We are a constitutional state and cannot allow kin liability. We mustn't judge someone by his looks or his origin and have to question our own prejudice every day. And it doesn't matter if people from the Maghreb states are 20% or 50% more criminal, they have their rights protected until they commit a crime and are convicted. It's the polices job to respect their rights as well, not just those of white people. We believe in universal human rights for a reason, these are not restricted by arbitrary lines on the map.

    Some people come here to abuse their right of asylum or just to steal and molest people, noone is denying that. But we have to judge this case by case, generalizations have no place in jurisdiction.

    Racial profiling IS illegal in every EU state (in the US as well afaik). It's just near impossible to prove and to enforce.
    I think there's a great misunderstanding here: The profiling did not happen on race basis. It primarily happened on vectorial basis: Age, gender, ethnicity. Meaning a 60 year old Moroccan businessman was unlikely to fall into the same category neither did that woman from Algeria. Racial profiling would involve full-scale focus on race only which is what didn't happen. Also it is very likely that the police checked Germans and other Europeans too. There are a lot European countries like Switzerland where it is even more strict and nobody would scream racism there.

    The structural racism everyone on the fringe left is screaming about in Germany is a wholly different kind of beast and not equally strong in German states. I'd reckon the Saxonian police is more prone to that than say the NRW police since NRW has a lot more ethnic diversity than Saxony. However this has nothing to do with how profiling has been here.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    I think there's a great misunderstanding here: The profiling did not happen on race basis. It primarily happened on vectorial basis: Age, gender, ethnicity. Meaning a 60 year old Moroccan businessman was unlikely to fall into the same category neither did that woman from Algeria. Racial profiling would involve full-scale focus on race only which is what didn't happen. Also it is very likely that the police checked Germans and other Europeans too. There are a lot European countries like Switzerland where it is even more strict and nobody would scream racism there.

    The structural racism everyone on the fringe left is screaming about in Germany is a wholly different kind of beast and not equally strong in German states. I'd reckon the Saxonian police is more prone to that than say the NRW police since NRW has a lot more ethnic diversity than Saxony. However this has nothing to do with how profiling has been here.
    As i said, we will never know, the only ones who know for certain were the ones fulfilling their duty. And the second paragraph is certainly true, eastern germany has ~4 times higher incidence rates of hostility towards strangers than western germany, this is certainly reflected in the police force and other authorities as well (with the exception of Berlin probably). The whole problem is much bigger there. The regions with the least refugees/immigrants are the most hostile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's interesting how people on the right are both claiming it wasn't racial profiling and praising them for the racial profiling.
    Quoting for truth.
    Last edited by XDurionX; 2017-01-04 at 12:37 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    I think there's a great misunderstanding here: The profiling did not happen on race basis. It primarily happened on vectorial basis: Age, gender, ethnicity. Meaning a 60 year old Moroccan businessman was unlikely to fall into the same category neither did that woman from Algeria. Racial profiling would involve full-scale focus on race only which is what didn't happen. Also it is very likely that the police checked Germans and other Europeans too. There are a lot European countries like Switzerland where it is even more strict and nobody would scream racism there.

    The structural racism everyone on the fringe left is screaming about in Germany is a wholly different kind of beast and not equally strong in German states. I'd reckon the Saxonian police is more prone to that than say the NRW police since NRW has a lot more ethnic diversity than Saxony. However this has nothing to do with how profiling has been here.
    It's not just likely, it's fact. They stated as much. Of course the newspapers didn't really make too big a point of it, because nobody cares about that when they can have the big German cracks down on north africans/Germans back to racism story.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    What do you mean by saying "against the German constitution or something"? I take it that "something" could as well be just the Code of Hammurabi? It is definitely against the latter but the people who could enforce it are long gone.
    I'm not knowledgeable on German law but most countries have a few laws like a constitution or as here in Sweden we have grundlag which is basically a basic law that is very harddgo remove used for every 1'equal right to vote and not to be discriminated against etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    Good for Germany, don't get the outrage. OT, thought this was a Tenniface thread.
    Thank you I was going for a more Tennisace look on the title with a angry smiley :P

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    As i said, we will never know, the only ones who know for certain were the ones fulfilling their duty. And the second paragraph is certainly true, eastern germany has ~4 times higher incidence rates of hostility towards strangers than western germany, this is certainly reflected in the police force and other authorites as well (with the exception of Berlin probably). The whole problem is much bigger there. The regions with the least refugees/immigrants are the most hostile.
    I am counting on that there has been very intensive preparation internally and that the people who were selected for that job weren't just drawn from an inventory list. It is very likely that after last year's failure there's been an adamant pursuit of professionalism this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not just likely, it's fact. They stated as much. Of course the newspapers didn't really make too big a point of it, because nobody cares about that when they can have the big German cracks down on north africans/Germans back to racism story.
    A lot news sites, magazines and newspapers seem to support the police's stance though and the few dissident voices do reflect the tenor of them. It is fair to remain critical of police actions but criticism ends where irrational flak begins. There was no feasible way to do it differently.
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  12. #52
    Sounds like NA needs this.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by W1sp View Post
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...nt-new-attacks

    So apparently it's OK to use racial profiling now because according to the police certain ethnic groups are more likely to commit crime according to them? Is this not against some German constitution or something?
    Not just according to them, according to statistical evidence -- > facts -- > reality

  14. #54
    The article claims it's behavioral profiling. The tweet was unnecessary.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    A lot news sites, magazines and newspapers seem to support the police's stance though and the few dissident voices do reflect the tenor of them. It is fair to remain critical of police actions but criticism ends where irrational flak begins. There was no feasible way to do it differently.
    Of course they're supporting the police. It's prudent, because they did their job properly. But they could've stressed a little more that this wasn't just north africans being picked up. I like how the simple tweet mentioning "nafris" is the only thing that sparked the whole discussion. We wouldn't even be talking about it if that one tweet from the police hadn't had to deal with the twitter limitations.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    I am counting on that there has been very intensive preparation internally and that the people who were selected for that job weren't just drawn from an inventory list. It is very likely that after last year's failure there's been an adamant pursuit of professionalism this time.

    A lot news sites, magazines and newspapers seem to support the police's stance though and the few dissident voices do reflect the tenor of them. It is fair to remain critical of police actions but criticism ends where irrational flak begins. There was no feasible way to do it differently.
    I do not doubt the pressure on them this year, though it's very hard to handpick personnel in the dimension that is needed for this kind of extensive presence. I just doubt their sensibilty for this topic. And we will never know whether there aren't any other "feasible" approaches because the situation was very unique this year. We cannot change the course of events, and if the police draws the right conclusions from this debate everything is fine. There were a lot less reports on crimes this year, so they did their job well. But they must never get complacent and have to incorporate our laws, which originated from hundreds of years of experience. These profiling laws are there for a reason and don't look that different in other first world countries.

    We could argue all day whether it was racial profiling or not, this is a waste of time since the officers certainly won't accuse themselves or their fellows. But we must contiinue to hold the people in public jobs up to high standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    Not just according to them, according to statistical evidence -- > facts -- > reality
    According to statistics, most violent perpetrators are men. So it's okay to question and detain every man by your logic? That's not how constitutional legality works.
    Last edited by XDurionX; 2017-01-04 at 12:54 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    The article claims it's behavioral profiling. The tweet was unnecessary.
    I agree. But likewise, the tweet shouldn't justify this sort of discussion. Heck, the police chief almost lost his job over this. As if he had direct control over the tweets. I get the whole responsibility thing, but at some point you have to take a step back and see if this response by the left is justified in the manner it's being conducted.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Of course they're supporting the police. It's prudent, because they did their job properly. But they could've stressed a little more that this wasn't just north africans being picked up. I like how the simple tweet mentioning "nafris" is the only thing that sparked the whole discussion. We wouldn't even be talking about it if that one tweet from the police hadn't had to deal with the twitter limitations.
    So does this mean people of North African descent are more likely to commit crime? Are we not all equal? Seems people forget history far to quickly. ( not saying you forget history in particular but people in general)

  19. #59
    Profiling is fine, so long as freedoms are not being restricted. That's where governments usually have a problem. In the course of their profiling, they go after specific racial and ethnic groups. In America, we have a 14th Amendment, so profiling is often unconstitutional. What it does allow, is more patrols in certain neighborhoods, as that does not infringe on anyone's freedoms. What it does not allow, is to detain, harass, or restrict people based on their race or ethnicity.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by W1sp View Post
    So does this mean people of North African descent are more likely to commit crime? Are we not all equal? Seems people forget history far to quickly. ( not saying you forget history in particular but people in general)
    Not sure what you're fishing for here. I don't actually give a shit who's "more likely" to commit crimes. The police is not in the business of arresting people for things they "might" do. This isn't Minority Report. The police, especially the day-to-day police you see, is in the business of keeping public law and order. Order being the main key point here. For them to keep public order, they are allowed to send off people based on their judgement on the spot at the scene. That is what happened. None of this is akin to criminal investigation, which the regular street police doens't do in any case. We have criminal police to investigate crimes (on behalf of the justice attorneys). But they were not present and didn't have anything to do with this.
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