Best solution to the Mythic raid size problem?

[cFortyfive]

No one here is talking about a solution for everybody. People are talking about ideas that could improve upon existing weaknesses in the static 20 man server only mythic space.
If you believe that there are no problems with the existing model you'd be wrong. If you believe that none of the above are solutions to existing issues then state that, and state the why/how you arrive at that conclusion for the sake of the discussion. Also fun fact, just because something is fine doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Could you walk me through a couple of your alleged problems that would be addressed that aren't related to accessibility concerns ? Again mythic raiding doesn't need to be content accessible for as many players as possible.

[Deleted]

With tier gear dropping from LFR and Normal, missing out on a possible early 2pc/4pc bonus(es) is hard to ignore. With places like ToV, sure, we jumped straight into Heroic. But I'm not sure the same would be wise for Nighthold.

I know my hand isn't forced, but in a Mythic setting, you can't be that guy that slacks unfortunately.

depends on how strong tier set is compared to ilvl upgrades, slacking as doing little less then others say 1-3less M+ a week or so doesnt really matter a whole lot to if you would do only like 2M+ a week. And if you do evrything from lfr to M and feel like youre gonna burn out id try to get a agreement with officers and/or gm.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I mean, I get where you're coming from. We'll see once it's released, and LFR's release of NH will be staggered, anyway.

Here's to hoping I just have good luck in Heroic our first time through.

Do your best then to get that first week hc guldan kill

[Wrecktangle]

Could you walk me through a couple of your alleged problems that would be addressed that aren't related to accessibility concerns ? Again mythic raiding doesn't need to be content accessible for as many players as possible.

Just to prove a point here you explicitly ignored answering the questions I posed you, then you asked me one. That's not fair friend. Also, accessibility is the PRIME issue with mythic. The content tuning is fine, difficulty curve is generally decent, etc. Accessibility is the issue, so it's not fair to limit that from the discussion.

However, I'll be the bigger person here and actually respond.

Your OPINION that mythic doesn't need to be content accessible for as many players as possible is fair, but flawed IMO. It's very one dimensional thinking. In my OPINION mythic raiding should be available not to as many players as possible, BUT to as many players WILLING to participate. In that vein there are existing circumstances that limit this unnecessarily. I think these statements while similar are actually very different.

1) No Cross Realm. There are no more achievements for server firsts, so honestly they need to just open it up. It will mitigate a huge portion of the server size related recruitment issues and opens up the space for more PUG capable mythic runs. Both of these are good things.

2) Static Size. The 20 person size isn't a huge issue. That's fine that they want to optimize that. However a small flex (say 18-22) would be better as it allows for "benchs" to come, it allows you to still raid if you're missing a few players. The only downside would be marginally different numbers tuning. The flex size is small enough that you shouldn't need any mechanic tuning. I.e. 3 targets, vs. 2 with a full flex system kind of thing.

3) There absolutely has to be a way to better handle mythic locks. I hate that if I join a pug mythic group kill 1-2 bosses I'm fucked for the rest of the week because I can't fill in for that guild again on Thursday. Why shouldn't I be allowed to fill in for another guild if I am willing and able who are working on later bosses, etc.

There are players like me who are capable (previous top 20 US) who don't play as much or have RL things that prevent us from playing at a top level these days. I still want to play challenging content, and should have that option if there are no massively negative consequences to having the option of doing so.

You're more than welcome to refute any statement I have made with your own experiences/opinions or facts/insight as to why there are no solutions to the statements I've made.

[Barnabas]

Just to prove a point here you explicitly ignored answering the questions I posed you, then you asked me one. That's not fair friend. Also, accessibility is the PRIME issue with mythic. The content tuning is fine, difficulty curve is generally decent, etc. Accessibility is the issue, so it's not fair to limit that from the discussion.

However, I'll be the bigger person here and actually respond.

Your OPINION that mythic doesn't need to be content accessible for as many players as possible is fair, but flawed IMO. It's very one dimensional thinking. In my OPINION mythic raiding should be available not to as many players as possible, BUT to as many players WILLING to participate. In that vein there are existing circumstances that limit this unnecessarily. I think these statements while similar are actually very different.

1) No Cross Realm. There are no more achievements for server firsts, so honestly they need to just open it up. It will mitigate a huge portion of the server size related recruitment issues and opens up the space for more PUG capable mythic runs. Both of these are good things.

2) Static Size. The 20 person size isn't a huge issue. That's fine that they want to optimize that. However a small flex (say 18-22) would be better as it allows for "benchs" to come, it allows you to still raid if you're missing a few players. The only downside would be marginally different numbers tuning. The flex size is small enough that you shouldn't need any mechanic tuning. I.e. 3 targets, vs. 2 with a full flex system kind of thing.

3) There absolutely has to be a way to better handle mythic locks. I hate that if I join a pug mythic group kill 1-2 bosses I'm fucked for the rest of the week because I can't fill in for that guild again on Thursday. Why shouldn't I be allowed to fill in for another guild if I am willing and able who are working on later bosses, etc.

There are players like me who are capable (previous top 20 US) who don't play as much or have RL things that prevent us from playing at a top level these days. I still want to play challenging content, and should have that option if there are no massively negative consequences to having the option of doing so.

You're more than welcome to refute any statement I have made with your own experiences/opinions or facts/insight as to why there are no solutions to the statements I've made.

You can clear content in 1-2 raid nights per week. If your schedule doesn't even allow for that then just clear LFR or quit? There is no point in making mythic anymore accessible than that. It's 8-9 hours minimum per week.

http://www.wowprogress.com/?faction=...=&class=&spec=

[Deleted]

If it was 18 you would cry for less, if it was 15 you would cry for less, if it was 10 you would still cry for less.
And flexible would be the single WORST change possible for reasons stated over and over again.

Please quit this game and forum or find a decent 20m mythic guild and be happy.

[pmkaboo]

20 man - crossrealm, i find it really stupid that the only activity not working crossrealm is the activity designed for the smallest group of players.

[cFortyfive]

Just to prove a point here you explicitly ignored answering the questions I posed you, then you asked me one.

I don't feel unreasonable at all asking a question. Might I remind you "friend" you were the one quoting me in one of those wall of texts lacking any interesting content quite similar to this one and I still gave you an answer you just didn't happen to like.

Your OPINION that mythic doesn't need to be content accessible for as many players as possible is fair, but flawed IMO.

Mythic difficulty is by virtue of being the "hardest" raid difficulty available already as inaccessible as it gets.

BUT to as many players WILLING to participate

I have zero doubts while in the grand scheme of things entirely irrelevant amounts of players there actually is a whole slew who would be willing to participate but can't because they lack the time, lack the skills, lack the 20$ to transfer, lack the confidence, lack the will to play in a bigger group, don't have the right hardware etc.

space for more PUG capable mythic runs.

Entirely irrelevant mythic is organized guild content. I personally wouldn't mind Blizzard waiving transfer fees but we all know they want their micro transaction money.

a small flex

Well I am sure you are actually convinced that even worse encounter quality is strictly better or just a small price to pay. Doesn't really change though it's just your opinion.

There absolutely has to be a way to better handle mythic locks.

Still organized guild content.

There are players like me who are capable (previous top 20 US) who don't play as much or have RL things that prevent us from playing at a top level these days. I still want to play challenging content, and should have that option if there are no massively negative consequences to having the option of doing so.

Once upon a who gives a crap. I can just repeat myself - mythic isn't content for everyone hence doesn't need to be made more accessible especially not on pug level. Free server transfers on let's say a cooldown would be appreciated but I know it's not going to happen. I don't see any good arguments for flex, cross realm or pugs.

[AtomicT]

It's impossible to balance mythics for multiple group sizes.

If you wanna do mythics go join a mythic guild, stop asking for blizzard to cater end game content content for a bunch of shitters, it wasn't designed for them and it never will be hence why you have lfr/norm/heroic with flex.

if you're complaining about not having enough people, go recruit or find more people (but lets be real, if your guild was actually good you wouldn't be struggling to find people)

[Teri]

Keep 20 mythic, merge servers, make all raids 20 man.

1: Can't balance flex raid enough.
2: Flex raid invalidates world 1st race, "look we were world first 20 man, but but but world 1st 16 man was harder"
3: Recruitment issues are most likely due to too many small and flex guilds as well as too many non connected realms.
4: I think all raids need to go back to 20 man fixed size so guilds will shuffle and adapt instead of having a bazzilion different raid sizes
5: if you want small group progression, do 5 man mythic+

I've been hoping for a 20 man raid system ever since TBC (kara was 10, further raids were 25, lots of guilds never got past kara due to logistic size issues.

Wotlk splitting 10 and 25 was the biggest mistake dividing the community. Cata guild perks/achievements only made it worse, people wouldn't shuffle guilds as easily.

Vanilla had 40 man as the main raid, 20 mans weren't progression, more like bonus tiers, Zul aman in TBC also was a bonus tier.

Kara was a problem due to being 1st raid of the expansion pretty much (yes magtheridon/kazzak/gruul were available too, just not enough bosses/loot for normal raid progression. It also was required for tier4 sets!


Now the same problems as Kara to tier 4+ is happening 2 ways : sub-20 , not enough players, over 20, not enough raid slots.

[SoulSoBreezy]

There has been a lot of discussion as of late about the current fixed Mythic raid of 20 and the issues it presents. There have been a number of solutions floating around which I have consolidated in this thread. Which solution do you think is the most reasonable going foward (keeping in mind Blizzard's goals of balance, class composition and groups)?

This's a design question, and is *much* more complicated than changing the qualifications for mythic raids or adjusting raid sizes. Maybe I'll do a video essay on this.
First we'd have to identify what the problem is. Are we (armchair designers) concerned with increasing participation in mythic raids? What sorts of decreased participation are we seeing? Is there a reliable metric (for anyone outside of Blizzard, no) we can base this on?

Skipping ahead, there's a lot more to identify, but I'll propose this based on many flimsy assumptions I have:

The problem (I see) lies with group building. It's exceedingly difficult for guilds and "free agents" to find each other with the frankly shitty guild finder tool. If the tool had a lot more power in it, like offering offline invites and more search parameters from both parties, players will have a much more comfortable time finding long term groups with a schedule and mindset that suits them.
Not all players and guilds - even "serious" ones - have the infrastructure to recruit and search. This is one avenue players could use Blizzard's help with.

[Deleted]

Changing raid size wouldn't help, mythic 18? People will cry that their 16man roster can't clear content

The only real issue I see is so many low pop servers. Server merges or a free transfer every X months would help imo

[Benomatic]

"4. Allow Mythic raid sizes to be slightly flexible (e.g. 18-22)
5. Allow Mythic raid sizes to be completely flexible (e.g. 10-30)
6. Have two fixed raid sizes (e.g. 15 or 16 and 20)"

Where do these crazy numbers come from? groups are based around multiples of 5?

[Gaidax]

It's fine really, it is accessible and reasonable enough for its intended audience.

[Saverem]

Guessing the reason why they won't allow cross realm Mythics is because of the server first achievements?

If so, then why not limit it to server until the first guild gets the server first and then let cross realm happen once that has happened?

So say a guild on Darkspear gets the server first achievement. That guild now unlocks that server to be able to cross realm Mythic raids with other servers that have also had guild first achievements. BOOM, problem solved. This would suck for the smaller servers with shitty guilds who won't ever get an achievement tho... Guess you can put a time bar on those. Once enough server unlock achievement, then all servers are unlocked.

[Puri]

Guessing the reason why they won't allow cross realm Mythics is because of the server first achievements?

If so, then why not limit it to server until the first guild gets the server first and then let cross realm happen once that has happened?

The underlaying problem that must be solved first before you can change the system to really work server wide is that mystic lockouts are still instance based. The chaos that would follow if they would allow it to be more flexible is immense.
Imagine you invite a random player from another guild, kill the first two bosses, and then he continues to use that instance to clear it with his guild. Next time your guild wants to raid the instance is already clear. Or he makes a random raidgroup with his ID, and your guil wants to zone into the raid but you cannot because the instance is already full.
So they would have to implement boss locks as it is in heroic and below, but that would change the run for world first dramatically as alt runs with loot catering would even be a thing for mythic runs.

[omeomorfismo]

20 fixed for the first weeks/month, then a little of flexibility with 19-21 or 18-22 if it dont broken some mechanics?

[melodramocracy]

Once the world first race is over, mythic should be cross-realmable. Beyond that, I don't see any reason to care about it. If your guild is of the correct size and motivation, you'll run it. If not, you probably won't give a shit about it.

[Sithalos]

There was nothing wrong with the raid system in Cata/MoP and it should have stayed that way.

[NihilSustinet]

It's fine the way it is. I would rather it be 40 man only, but 20 is a good compromise for everyone. If you want to go difficult, rewarding, tightly tuned content, join a guild. not that hard.