Hold off doing emissary quests until patch?

[Skulltaker]

I don't understand why you think needing to have 360 loot tables means it can't work that way. Obviously they already need those loot tables no matter when the loot is generated. And you tell me to use my brain?

But sure, keep talking like you somehow magically know exactly how it works.

No, they don't. They need one. With the loot being adapted to the player the moment he loots the cache.

Again. Make one loot table for the cache. Flag all items for apropriate specs.

Or create 36 loot tables, one for each spec.

Which one is more work?

And please, read my first post in this thread again. I don't pretend I 'magically know' anything. I'm making a reasonable assumption based on what little information we have regarding how loot works, and I'll stand by it until proven wrong. While all you do is random guessing, and failing to grasp what I'm trying to tell you. Which I find rather sad.

[Deix-EU]

1) Loot is pre-determined means: "we know what you will get at the moment you did get the cache but not 'how'" => how means re-calculations (scaling etc.)
Scaling takes less time processing than a random loot table generator with anti hashing collision etc.
Performance wise, the loot table has to be parsed only ONCE.

2) We don't know and noone can claim it works as the 'scaling' process for legendaries or it's a token that determines whether you get a leg or not.
From an Solution Architect perspective, determining first a token THEN a loot table at opening seems overhead for nothing. I don't trust this system and I don't think Blizz did this unless they want to prevent what people are doing right now that is storing cache to get new legendaries. Metadata only information about a type of item to prevent this could be true, however I would have generated the item in the first time and that's all, with only a few recalculations at opening.

3) No matter what you think, I as many other am storing the caches and people doing so are clever because the worst case as already stated is getting what you were supposed to get only few days later but with a best case scenario that could make whine lot of people who didn't do so (and it might be the case this week ...).

[Dahij]

But what if after the first boss 10 people leave the instance, 15 other join, two switch their loot spec during the kill. Do you really think the server creates a matrix of all possible permutations of classes and loot specs when you enter an instance? Or would it not be much simpler to determine loot the moment the boss dies?

I believe Bosses/caches dont actually have legendaries att all in their loot tablets, youre simply handed a random one when youre lucky enough to win the lottery. Otherwise you would actually loot the legendary and not get it straight to your bag.

I would think bonus rolls work in a similar way, you sin the roll and the game picks a random item for your spec from the loot tablets.

Not sure how personal loot is determined, but the loot is determined when an instance is created with ML/GL.

[Puri]

Simple is a relative term. If you'd start from scratch, yes. I'd assume it would be. But this is a very old engine, and we know how it used to work. And from my (little) experience with programming it is usually easier to find individual workarounds then including a whole new system.

Well, from my programming experience it is sometimes better to get rid of old systems that hinder your intents and implement a new one or refactor the existing one.

[Deix-EU]

No, they don't. They need one. With the loot being adapted to the player the moment he loots the cache.

Again. Make one loot table for the cache. Flag all items for apropriate specs.

Or create 36 loot tables, one for each spec.

Which one is more work?

In the end you have to create all the possible loot tables. Item comes from somewhere and token system doesn't prevent this. Just the map-reduce algorithm to optimize the research over the specific loots only.

[Sanguinezor]

Well, What do you have to lose by saving it for Wed?

I have 300x Emissary caches that I will open a few days after Patch day for a vid. (^_^)

Guess I will find out then

[Deix-EU]

Well, from my programming experience it is sometimes better to get rid of old systems that hinder your intents and implement a new one or refactor the existing one.

Get more experience and you'll eventually include "budget and time" in your calculations. That changes everything while you are theorically true.

[Puri]

Get more experience and you'll eventually include "budget and time" in your calculations. That changes everything while you are theorically true.

Exactly. Get more experience and you will notice constant workarounds lead to much more problems and costs - especially for an integral part of a software - so that rewriting is the better choice.

[Skulltaker]

In the end you have to create all the possible loot tables. Item comes from somewhere and token system doesn't prevent this. Just the map-reduce algorithm to optimize the research over the specific loots only.

Yes, but you can do away with one. Loot already changes (or even scales, in the case of acc-gear) with Level and spec. I assume it is easier to have one adapting table for adapting loot then having 36.

Well, from my programming experience it is sometimes better to get rid of old systems that hinder your intents and implement a new one or refactor the existing one.

You might be right. My programming experience is rather limited. But it is my understanding that most programs have a 'core' to them that you cannot change without a massive workload, or replacing the entire program.

[Sanguinezor]

It is possible that the loot is NOT snapshotted so the likelihood of getting your contents rerolled is still 50/50 due to it not actually being a container that you can choose out of.

But you have nothing to lose by taking a gamble like this unless your bis is in the current tier of legs

[Skulltaker]

Well, What do you have to lose by saving it for Wed?

I have 300x Emissary caches that I will open a few days after Patch day for a vid. (^_^)

Guess I will find out then

Nothing of course. You just might be disapointed because you recieve an 'old' and unupgraded legendary, or happy, because you recieve a new ilvl 940 one. Good luck!

[Deix-EU]

Exactly. Get more experience and you will notice constant workarounds lead to much more problems and costs - especially for an integral part of a software - so that rewriting is the better choice.

Indeed. However "rewriting" is rarely what occurs. Frustrating for conceptual, abstract and creative minds I admit.

[Deleted]

Pretty sure that loot is generated when you get the chest, not when you open.

Same for dungeons - it's already decided what you going to get, otherwise seen from a techinical perspective(as a tech guy), players would run a risk of not getting any loot(something might go down during the process)or the servers would be in trouble will all the distribution world wide(lantecy etc).

I also believe the same when you do mount runs. It's all about entering ICC during the right window.

As for world bosses, this process might happend whenever you tag it(not when it dies).

[Hawg]

No they are in the caches. Ive had 4 in caches now, and its always been when I opened it. It also always rolled to the spec the character was currently in at opening not quest turn in (Emissary quest turned in as Ele with Ele as spec, changed to resto and recieved resto shaman bracers etc).

As for the item creation etc. The looting and systems of loot have been completely overhauled since Drysc made that comment, and we dont even have the entire original comment anymore AFAIK. All we do know is that items are not preset to a specific item ID on container creation, but what the internal workings are and whats decided on creation and whats decided on opening is entirely unknown.

One thing we can definitely know for sure though is, loot is not generated on instance creation anymore. If loot was generated on instance creation, and you replaced a member of your group when on personal loot who was of a different loot type (Say replace a bear druid with a paladin tank), if the loot was already created and decided, the paladin would be incapable of gaining plate items, yet they can.

Well it must be both then, because mine appeared the instant I turned in the quest. I didn't even open the chests until later.

[Sanguinezor]

Pretty sure that loot is generated when you get the chest, not when you open.

Same for dungeons - it's already decided what you going to get, otherwise seen from a techinical perspective(as a tech guy), the loot distrubtion might run a risk not getting it or the servers would be in trouble will all the loot tasks.

I can point you to 1 instance that is specific to this discussion.
Unclaimed black market container

This item had its content rerolled quite a few times due to it not being snapshotted.

I understand that dungeons are "loot locked" the moment you enter a dungeon. (Eg. Rogues in BT)

As a coder myself. If they were to change emissary cache loot tables, they would need to generate a new id in order for it to accommodate the previous and new content.

From a stand point of efficiency. It would be easier to update the loot table and reroll the existing emissary cache's id.

I would love to put it to the test by opening a chest and seeing what is inside. However, that is not possible since caches aren't a container where you can actually see the content inside because it is consumed on use.

[Dazu]

People have been getting caches on live, then opening them on ptr, and getting new legendaries. It's worth doing them, and holding onto the caches. Plus Blizz already stated "new legendaries will be 940" so if you get one, it's 940.

There's really no reason not to save up some and open it then.

Ive seen screenshots from the PTR of them being 910. Ive not seen any confirmation that any legendaries will drop at 940 after patch comes out and the base ilvl of the new legendaries is 910 like current ones.
https://imgur.com/a/rzPrr
Blizz said they would begin dropping at a higher ilvl, but didnt say when. Ive seen speculation it most likely will be next tier so the base ilvl will be equal to the current max in 7.2.

[Psykhe]

Ive seen screenshots from the PTR of them being 910. Ive not seen any confirmation that any legendaries will drop at 940 after patch comes out and the base ilvl of the new legendaries is 910 like current ones.
https://imgur.com/a/rzPrr
Blizz said they would begin dropping at a higher ilvl, but didnt say when. Ive seen speculation it most likely will be next tier so the base ilvl will be equal to the current max in 7.2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IGzwl1o84Q 30:53

Of cource, 2 months old now, things might have changed. I wouldn't take the current state in the PTR as proof for that though.

[Sanguinezor]

Mmmm. I could download the latest PTR build and test it.

If you like, I have the resources

[Deix-EU]

This makes no fucking sense. How is flagging all items appropriate for each spec not creating 36 loot tables? Like what? Obviously an item like the legion chests had a loot table for all invasion items they created for each and every spec. That has nothing to do with how or when the loot is actually generated and there's no real difference between having 36 loot tables or having it flag the appropriate loot when a certain spec generates that chest. So, you're contradicting yourself.

How can you sit there and say I'm just randomly guessing when I'm not even claiming anything? The only person here making claims is you.

Think what he means as a database (SQL or NOSQL is not the matter, think about relationship: however there is no chance with all the transactional behaviour that WoW works with a NOSQL).

TABLE LOOT association contains LOOT1, LOOT2 etc.
LOOTX references TABLE SPEC and other reified data

with a database full business request (performance depending about horizontal scaling + number of data / access a day)

OR

TALBE LOOT MAGE_GENERIC
TABLE LOOT MAGE ARCANE
TABLE LOOT MAGE FIRE
TABLE LOOT MAGE FROST
TABLE LOOT WARRIOR
...

with a full programmatic business rule approach and less data to parse. This approach is best performance wise because there are already functionnalities IG that makes loot table for every different spec and this would be kind of direct access to that specific business need. Reified data are always welcome.

[Skulltaker]

This makes no fucking sense. How is flagging all items appropriate for each spec not creating 36 loot tables? Like what? Obviously an item like the legion chests had a loot table for all invasion items they created for each and every spec. That has nothing to do with how or when the loot is actually generated and there's no real difference between having 36 loot tables or having it flag the appropriate loot when a certain spec generates that chest. So, you're contradicting yourself.

How can you sit there and say I'm just randomly guessing when I'm not even claiming anything? The only person here making claims is you.

There's two claims you made in only one paragraph. Without any basis for your assumption, whatsoever. Which makes it a random guess. Allthough the wording in the first one is ambiguous. Do you mean 'it had one, as in a single one' for all items, ore an individual one for every spec?

And again. One list with notes on what concerns whom, or 36 individual list. You tell me which one is more work.

- - - Updated - - -

Mmmm. I could download the latest PTR build and test it.

If you like, I have the resources

If the assumption that loot is created upon the creation of the cache is correct, this wouldn't work as a proof, as the cache is not directly taken from live to the ptr, but rather newly created on the ptr.