Argus, Legion final boss and the future of the Burning Legion

[Friendlyimmolation]

He doesn't want to destroy Azeroth anymore he wants to do the bedroom dance with her.

[Caerule]

As I said, Blizzard always leaves a door open, it's really hard for them to kill a faction.

And the Draenei might not be happy about seeing his homeworld destroyed, they could have hopes of rebuilding it.

I'll respond to these two things, as only time will tell which of us is right about the other things .

Blizzard likes to keep the door open, true. But that doesn't mean we can't destroy Sargeras by blowing up Argus. The Titans themselves hurled their soul elsewhere else upon their destruction, and Sargeras has shows remarkable ability to place parts of his soul into things. Several avatars. Aegwynn, Medivh. Destroying Sargeras' true body will be a huge victory for Azeroth. But that doesn't mean all the demons are gone, or that we'll never see Sargeras again.

I've not played Diablo, but from what I've seen of the series, Diablo is a main antagonist of extreme power, but has also been destroyed. Yet managed to find ways to return. Point is, the death of Sargeras doesn't mean Blizzard has closed all doors.

As for the Draenei reclaiming Argus. You have seen the picture of it that I posted, right? Do you truly believe they can put this back together?

The only reason to return home is to avenge it.

[Darkarath]

I'll respond to these two things, as only time will tell which of us is right about the other things .

Blizzard likes to keep the door open, true. But that doesn't mean we can't destroy Sargeras by blowing up Argus. The Titans themselves hurled their soul elsewhere else upon their destruction, and Sargeras has shows remarkable ability to place parts of his soul into things. Several avatars. Aegwynn, Medivh. Destroying Sargeras' true body will be a huge victory for Azeroth. But that doesn't mean all the demons are gone, or that we'll never see Sargeras again.

I've not played Diablo, but from what I've seen of the series, Diablo is a main antagonist of extreme power, but has also been destroyed. Yet managed to find ways to return. Point is, the death of Sargeras doesn't mean Blizzard has closed all doors.

As for the Draenei reclaiming Argus. You have seen the picture of it that I posted, right? Do you truly believe they can put this back together?

The only reason to return home is to avenge it.

Who knows? Outland looks way worse and people still live in it and want to heal the planet.

As for Sargeras, I agree that he can be killed and then brought back, I just don't see that happening after defeating his Avatar in the previous tier; and we never got the chance to see him, so the final boss is going to be a figure that we can't relate to anything?

Because Archimonde kind of came out from nowhere in WoD (everybody was thinking that a corrupted Grommash would be the final boss), but we know him well and we had seen him before.

So, who knows? I'm really excited to see who the final boss is going to be.

[killwithpwr]

I think that The army of the light with the guidance of the naaru, will help us show Sargeras the errors of his ways and then the bulk of Legion will become our allies in the fight against the void.

Only problem i see is this:

Setting - final raid of Legion.
We, the players together with godllidan and the naaru prime Xera, find out the Sargeras has been tracking Void Lors which somehow managed to break into our reality and ia locked in mortal combat with him. We go into the fray and help him defeat the Void Lord.

Then he says: "OMGZ ballz, you so powerfull, you kill de void Mon!"
And then shouts"The Cosmos is free!"

And every one huvs and kisses him for that lone sentance.

Either that, or Khadgar is actually a direct agent of either the Void Lords or Sargy....

[Zandalariprelate]

Because Archimonde kind of came out from nowhere in WoD (everybody was thinking that a corrupted Grommash would be the final boss), but we know him well and we had seen him before.

So, who knows? I'm really excited to see who the final boss is going to be.

The toy about the dimisive of the legion, show archimonde talking with Kiljaeden about his fail to corrupt the orcs in this dimension and how he will "fix" the things here and the feast of souls of their enemies and a lot of people was already making theories in how archimonde is actually the final boss but is secretly saved to the final patch, thing they did it really well.

[Kelzam]

This expansion needs to end the involvement of the Burning Legion in the story because frankly where can they go with the Legion after this that won't be trite and boring? If we kill Sargeras, there is no reason to have a Legion expansion. They exist for one purpose: to carry out his will. Without him the demons would be scattered through the Twisting Nether, their unity unraveled and warring among themselves. If he does make it out of this expansion alive... what then? Same crusade to destroy all the living world souls; same Legion with the same Burning Crusade. The game has been building up to finishing this story for years. Let it end, because anything that they could do with the Burning Legion after this would be anything but interesting.

[Deleted]

Call me weird, But I am hoping we do NOT win on Argus.
Say as an example, we do fight Sarg, but lose, losing heroes around us, only at the last minute for Illidian, or Khadgar to push us through a portal, that he seals for eternity from his end.
Would be nice for us to suffer a crushing defeat, rather than a memorial, dragon part in the city to click to see the "IWIN" movie.
Only for us to get back to find Azshara and NZ have made their move in our absence.

[Skeppio]

Given the buildup, and the fact that the expansion is even named Legion, I imagine the 7.3 (or 7.4) Argus patch will be the final showdown with the Legion. Either Kil'Jaeden (if he doesn't die in 7.2) and Archimonde (if they decide he's not really dead again), or a true fully-powered Avatar of Sargeras (possibly even some manifestation of the real deal himself) would have to be the end boss. After that, with the leadership of Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde gone, the Legion is basically doomed to break apart due to infighting and disorganisation (this is explained in Warcraft Chronicle as the reason Sargeras recruited the Eredar in the first place: their exceptional leadership skills).
So we'll certainly fight demons again in the future, but as the biggest overarching threat, I'm confident that this is the end of the line for the Burning Legion.

[Zandalariprelate]

Given the buildup, and the fact that the expansion is even named Legion, I imagine the 7.3 (or 7.4) Argus patch will be the final showdown with the Legion. Either Kil'Jaeden (if he doesn't die in 7.2) and Archimonde (if they decide he's not really dead again), or a true fully-powered Avatar of Sargeras (possibly even some manifestation of the real deal himself) would have to be the end boss. After that, with the leadership of Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde gone, the Legion is basically doomed to break apart due to infighting and disorganisation (this is explained in Warcraft Chronicle as the reason Sargeras recruited the Eredar in the first place: their exceptional leadership skills).
So we'll certainly fight demons again in the future, but as the biggest overarching threat, I'm confident that this is the end of the line for the Burning Legion.

I think that is the idea actually, also with all the new lore in the game show us why the demons are so obsessed with us and with azeroth(they are bad losers and the world soul affair) and with the chain command slowly dying, the legion is probably undone in this expansion, with a small faction that would still follow sargeras or we are gonna end up destroying at least 70% of the legion and the only way to stop them is destroying Sargeras and the Void lords to end all the wars that are coming from those entities.

[Maletalana]

Our artifacts while powerful, I doubt they could even touch Sargeras.

Keep everything in perspective: Sargeras is akin to Aman'thul, Norgannon, and Eonar. Could we ever face off against Aman'thul the highfather? Think about it, that represents the supreme god and creator of the universe. We can never "fight" Sargeras, just like we can't stab our shadows to death. An aspect of reality doesn't have to be tangible, to exist.

Further, I do not believe we can or will ever "fight" the Void Lords.

Our reality exists thanks to the difference between light and shadow, creating contrast. Light Lords (not really talked about -- think, creators of the Naaru) represent the light, where the Void Lords represent the reciprocal, shadow/darkness/lack of light. The Titans represent Order, as in, the concept or Order, as opposed to Chaos. Demons and the Fel, represent the opposite of Order, which is Chaos.
The 2 other (IMO lesser) remaining aspects of reality are Life and Death.

Light
Void
Order
Chaos
Life
Death

We, the players, aka the good guys, fight on the side of Light, Order, and Life -- against Chaos (Burning Legion), Void (Old Gods), and Death (Scourge/LK).

If any of this sounds familiar, TA DA, its paraphrased right out of the Chronicle V.1.

Each of these *aspects of reality* as I would like the term coined, has various levels of power, for example:

*Void*
Void Lords
Old Gods
Faceless Ones
lesser races under their control (Mantid for example)

*Order*
Titans (Norgannon)
Constructs (Odyn) / Watchers (Mimiron)
Earthen / Valarjar
races who succumbed to the curse of flesh (Vry'kul / Dwarf)



To suggest that a player character, at the bottom tier, could engage in battle with an entity that represents an aspect of reality, is IMO simply impossible.



Please reply to me with questions or inconsistencies!

- - - Updated - - -

.... And then shouts"The Cosmos is free!" ....

Issue I have here is that this means that there is a supreme end boss in the universe.

If we end the Void, only the conflict between Light and Void would end. This still leaves the conflicts between Order vs. Chaos, and Life vs. Death.

On a tangent about the Void ending, The Light cannot exist unless against the backdrop of the Void, or lack or light. It's yin and yang, there must be balance. Light must always combat Void.

As for the other two remaining conflicts, let's say that we convince Sargeras to denounce Chaos and return to the Pantheon, and for the sake of argument, let's pretend this is at all possible in the first place. Sargeras isn't a representation of Chaos, he is simply holding the reins. The forces of demons and Chaos exist whether or not Sarg is in control of them or not. He did not create the Burning Legion, he simply rallied them up and gave them a name and a cause. Remember, the demons' unrelenting onslaught was so immense, it is what caused Sarg's insanity.

tldr- ending Sargeras' rein does not end the forces of Chaos, it just unleashes them. Order must always combat Chaos


Also to include the other (oft not mentioned) conflict, Life vs. Death did not end with Arthas end as LK, or the scourge being beaten back. They are aspects of reality, remember. The Wild Gods, who represent and fight for Life, will always be counter Death (and "un"death). Life must always combat Death.

[Darkarath]

Keep everything in perspective: Sargeras is akin to Aman'thul, Norgannon, and Eonar. Could we ever face off against Aman'thul the highfather? Think about it, that represents the supreme god and creator of the universe. We can never "fight" Sargeras, just like we can't stab our shadows to death. An aspect of reality doesn't have to be tangible, to exist.

Further, I do not believe we can or will ever "fight" the Void Lords.

Our reality exists thanks to the difference between light and shadow, creating contrast. Light Lords (not really talked about -- think, creators of the Naaru) represent the light, where the Void Lords represent the reciprocal, shadow/darkness/lack of light. The Titans represent Order, as in, the concept or Order, as opposed to Chaos. Demons and the Fel, represent the opposite of Order, which is Chaos.
The 2 other (IMO lesser) remaining aspects of reality are Life and Death.

Light
Void
Order
Chaos
Life
Death

We, the players, aka the good guys, fight on the side of Light, Order, and Life -- against Chaos (Burning Legion), Void (Old Gods), and Death (Scourge/LK).

If any of this sounds familiar, TA DA, its paraphrased right out of the Chronicle V.1.

Each of these *aspects of reality* as I would like the term coined, has various levels of power, for example:

*Void*
Void Lords
Old Gods
Faceless Ones
lesser races under their control (Mantid for example)

*Order*
Titans (Norgannon)
Constructs (Odyn) / Watchers (Mimiron)
Earthen / Valarjar
races who succumbed to the curse of flesh (Vry'kul / Dwarf)



To suggest that a player character, at the bottom tier, could engage in battle with an entity that represents an aspect of reality, is IMO simply impossible.



Please reply to me with questions or inconsistencies!

- - - Updated - - -



Issue I have here is that this means that there is a supreme end boss in the universe.

If we end the Void, only the conflict between Light and Void would end. This still leaves the conflicts between Order vs. Chaos, and Life vs. Death.

On a tangent about the Void ending, The Light cannot exist unless against the backdrop of the Void, or lack or light. It's yin and yang, there must be balance. Light must always combat Void.

As for the other two remaining conflicts, let's say that we convince Sargeras to denounce Chaos and return to the Pantheon, and for the sake of argument, let's pretend this is at all possible in the first place. Sargeras isn't a representation of Chaos, he is simply holding the reins. The forces of demons and Chaos exist whether or not Sarg is in control of them or not. He did not create the Burning Legion, he simply rallied them up and gave them a name and a cause. Remember, the demons' unrelenting onslaught was so immense, it is what caused Sarg's insanity.

tldr- ending Sargeras' rein does not end the forces of Chaos, it just unleashes them. Order must always combat Chaos


Also to include the other (oft not mentioned) conflict, Life vs. Death did not end with Arthas end as LK, or the scourge being beaten back. They are aspects of reality, remember. The Wild Gods, who represent and fight for Life, will always be counter Death (and "un"death). Life must always combat Death.

I agree with you, especially in the similarities between the Scourge and the Legion.

If we manage, somehow, to kill Sargeras (defeat him would be more appropiate, because, as you said, we cannot kill an entity like him) the demons will be unleashed, pretty much like the undead army, it may be less effective, but not less destructive, and certainly, the demons aren't going anywhere in the Warcraft universe.

[Deleted]

Just throwing this out there I don't think I've seen it.

Possible raid boss - Perhaps there is an Old God on Argus.

[Darkarath]

Just throwing this out there I don't think I've seen it.

Possible raid boss - Perhaps there is an Old God on Argus.

I really doubt that this is the case, being Argus one of the mains (if not the main) planet of the Legion. Knowing Sargeras liking for destruction, any living form related to the Void would have been vanquished, unless they kept it for research purposes, but I think that the chances of that are very tiny.

[Evilmoo]

I like defeat on Argus > Return to Azeroth only to see that N'zoth stabbed us in our backs and now we only have tiny bit of land left and maybe few cities, no more horde or alliance exists since Stormwind and Orgrimmar have been plunged into void and we togeather have to play underdogs, regroup, counter-attack and reclaim everything or just make our stand before some gnomes or goblins build a portal large enough for us to run to a more hospitable planet.

[Qualia]

Keep everything in perspective: Sargeras is akin to Aman'thul, Norgannon, and Eonar. Could we ever face off against Aman'thul the highfather? Think about it, that represents the supreme god and creator of the universe. We can never "fight" Sargeras, just like we can't stab our shadows to death. An aspect of reality doesn't have to be tangible, to exist.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Firstly, Aman'thul does not represents the supreme God and Creator of the Universe. He is nowhere near that grand and powerful. In fact, Aman'thul wasn't even the first being appeared in the universe. Sargeras, just like Aman'thul, or Norgannon / Eonar / other Pantheon members, and the Void Lords are just extremely powerful beings, but "normal" beings nonetheless. The Pantheon, or the Void Lords aren't intangible, they have a form, and exist just like us. If we can manage to gather enough power to hit them hard enough, we can defeat / kill them.

Secondly, neither the Void Lords, nor the Pantheon or the demons are "aspects of reality". As stated above, they are just "normal" beings (normal in citation marks since they are obviously godly in power). They aren't the personification of the Light / the Void / Order Chaos, or any concept - they are just strong being with those alignment. In other words, I doubt that killing all the Void Lords would have damaged / weakened the Void itself any bit, just like the Naaru with the Light, demons with Chaos or Pantheon with Order, etc. At least, there has been no indication that it was the case. The eternal conflict between the Void and the Light wouldn't end if we somehow manage to kill all the Void Lords, as the Void itself would remain untouched and in time, new Void Lords would arise from the Void energy. In summary, as long as we are powerful enough, we can kill them just fine.

Of course, this bring up the question - can we be powerful enough? I agree with you that mortals should have more or less no chance against Sargeras. However, that's only if we remains mortals as we are now. There are multiple ways to go around it. For example, we might get a temporary empowerment from all the Naaru existing. Or maybe we can find a way to gather all power of the Pantheon that resting inside the Keepers (and wake up the Pantheon's spirits, if they are around just like Aman'thul). Or it's possible that Azeroth decided to share all its power with us - the champions that are defending it against the most destructive army in the universe. Basically, there are possibilities for Blizzard to give us temporary (so we wouldn't remain physical gods permanently) empowerment that would give us as much power as a Pantheon member (or at least, almost as much) - that'd give us a good chance against Sargeras. Another possibility is that, as someone else mentioned in another thread (not remember who did), maybe we can pull a Nathreza on Sargeras by exploding Argus on his face. If Mar'duum had enough fel power to gravely damaged Sargeras, Argus should be able to do the same if not worse. There we have it - means to defeat / kill Sargeras. I *DO* believe that if we are to gather empowerments from other godlike beings, it should deserve an epic quest chain lasting an entire expansion. However, I wouldn't rule out the chance that Blizzard would just decide to go with a rather anti-climax end and have us getting empowered by the Naaru / Azeroth in one patch.

Lastly, the demons don't cause Sargeras' insanity. No longer, to be exact. With the release of Chronicle, it has been established that Sargeras was able to deal with the demons just fine - it was his finding of the possibility that a Void Titan can be born that freaked him out. Unleashing the demons wouldn't be much of an issue. As stated in both Chronicle and "Illidan", the demons by themselves are incompetent and unorganized - if we remove their leaders, they would be far less of a threat than they are now (they'd start fighting each other and such, and most of them are inside the Nether). That wasn't the case with the Scourge which wouldn't be fighting themselves AND are on the same planet as us.

All in all, TL;DR version: there isn't really any issue with killing the Legion's leaders, and there are ways for us to kill Sargeras. The question is just if Blizzard decide to go that way :P

[Caerule]

I have to agree with @Qualia against @Maletalana.

The Titans, Void Lords and other such gigantic beings may be shapers of worlds, and aligned with a cosmic force, but that doesn't mean they are the physical manifestation of that power. They aren't Aspects of Reality. They are merely creatures that represent, use, and hold such essence. These cosmic forces/concepts will not cease to exist without those wielding them. Just as us killing Ragnaros did not remove Fire from Azeroth.

Titans have fallen before. Sargeras murdered them all, leaving no pantheon of order. And while Sargeras got corrupted into a god of fel, killing him, killing all demons, would not stop fel from existing. Nor would killing the Void Lords remove the realm of the Void. The balance of opposing cosmic powers is an illusion. Heck, Death doesn't even have cosmic entities personifying it, and it exists just fine. We can remove the Void Lords just fine, theoretically.

Now destroying a Titan is destroying a living planet. Which is something on a scale that is certainly challenging to do. But, well, if you look at Outland, it's clear that destroying planets isn't beyond mortal power. And Illidan knows all about it.

[SirBeef]

When it comes to the Broken Isles there are only small areas of Legion influence so it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. And the Legion wasn't too much involved in Vanilla, it was very sparse.

We stopped the initial invasion before it had a chance to get much worse. The BL in vanilla just suffered defeat a few years prior in W3 so a large presence would seem out of place IMO.

[Deleted]

Our artifacts while powerful, I doubt they could even touch Sargeras.

Axe of Cenarius was meant to be one of the artifacts but it didn't fit warrior "fantasy". So our artifacts are on the same level of power or even stronger.

[Farrarie]

Yeah not sure why lots of people feel this way. If you want story to be told right & good, arguments such as "too much green", "too much orcs", "demons fatigue" are just stupid. Let Blizz tell story how it should be without rushing instead of complaining cuz you want to hit blue enemies instead of green ones. I really want them to close Burning Legion story arc properly, they owe it to Warcraft 3!

I totally agree

[Ebalina]

Final boss i hope will be Ta'gath the 3rd eredar lord of the burning legion the 3rd General the one who stood in the shadows all these years.

Or hoping he is in there some where the Agent of Kil'jaeden.