Does anyone miss old survival?

[Bepples]

I loved MoP survival but I don't see them returning it to a ranged specialisation for a long long time, if ever.

You know what's sad? MoP Survival both had more abilities in it's rotation AND is more faster-paced than BM today.

At level 15.

I should know:

http://i.imgur.com/E9bdZMI.jpg

MoP private server. I'm at level 15, and I have 4 abilities in my rotation. I have a 1.0 sec GCD which is always capped.

BM at 110 today has 3 abilities in its rotation with a 1.5 GCD which is capped 60% of the time.

Eh oh el.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Miss the 5.4 Survival.

[xZerocidex]

Thank class fantasy boys, gotta keep those spec identities up despite they fail to hit mark with them.

[Deleted]

Mop was the best expansion

Fucking agree.

[Deleted]

No, i have really enjoyed survival in Legion (even though we do kind of shit dps), still way more fun than MM or BM.

[Spl4sh3r]

I miss Burning Crusade Survival Hunter. Since we had both Expose Weakness and Explosive Shot. Basically I miss those buffs that based on our stats gave boosts to other players in the group. I even played Restoration Druid who gave boost to mp5 based on my Spirit. Always liked Battle at Hyjal Summit then because I had over 600 Spirit with Jaina's Aura.

[Bepples]

I miss Burning Crusade Survival Hunter. Since we had both Expose Weakness and Explosive Shot. Basically I miss those buffs that based on our stats gave boosts to other players in the group. I even played Restoration Druid who gave boost to mp5 based on my Spirit. Always liked Battle at Hyjal Summit then because I had over 600 Spirit with Jaina's Aura.

Explosive Shot was not added until 3.0. I guess you are thinking of that period between October 14 2008 and November 13 2008 where the expansion wasn't out but the systems patch was: you did indeed have both Expose Weakness and Explosive Shot while doing BC raids. But that that point BC was more or less over and the game was transitioning to WotLK.

[Faylinn]

I miss it here,used to be my favorite spec alongside BM but now I just avoid it completely.
I didn't roll Hunter to play melee and now I only have two ranged specs, one I don't even like. Melee hunter was a neat idea by itself but they shouldn't have removed an existing spec for it.

[ozusteapot]

Could anyone kindly post some youtube footage of Survival in its hayday? Doesn't matter the expansion.

As someone who rolled hunter for the first time this expansion and is loving Marksmanship, I really wish there'd be a 3rd ranged spec as it was before just for the sake of diversity, and so I want to reminisce.

[Bepples]

Could anyone kindly post some youtube footage of Survival in its hayday? Doesn't matter the expansion.

As someone who rolled hunter for the first time this expansion and is loving Marksmanship, I really wish there'd be a 3rd ranged spec as it was before just for the sake of diversity, and so I want to reminisce.

Survival really peaked in MoP 5.4:



It was mostly the same spec in early WoD too but without the amazing 4-set bonus as well as Kill Shot:



Notice firstly that the spec was fully mobile. People often don't really understand that concept and bring up specs that are "pretty mobile" like Fire Mage in 7.0/7.1, but the thing is even as those sorts of classes you would eventually have to stop and cast or lose DPS. In 5.1 (early MoP) Steady Shot and Cobra Shot (Steady Shot being the Marksman focus generator and Cobra Shot being the equivalent for BM/SV) could be cast on the move: from this point on BM and SV could literally move for 100% of the fight and not lose ANY DPS: everything was instant cast except for the focus generator and even that could be cast while moving. The trade off was having generally lower DPS than other classes but it seemed to balance out nicely. MM could never claim this: even after Aimed Shot became castable while moving in 6.0 (which was reversed in Legion... great... ) you had to stand still most of the time for Sniper Training. This is why I included the Brackenspore video (also because it was my favourite fight ever and that was me recording the video ): constant movement with no DPS loss.

What really made the spec great, though, was the pace: SV was very fast-paced. Notice in that Thok video there is ALWAYS something to cast (BM has a LOT of downtime right now and even MM can have downtime at points). He also doesn't have to spend that much time casting Cobra Shot because everything has such a low focus cost and even then he gets a lot of it for free due to Lock and Load and Thrill of the Hunt. The global cooldown before Legion was also a base 1.0 seconds while now it is 1.5 seconds which made a night and day difference. There is also multidotting going on with Serpent Spread (Multi-Shot applied Serpent Sting to all targets).

The "pacing" part about SV was what people didn't understand about the spec when they claim "There was no difference between Marksmanship and Survival". Marksmanship generally had higher focus costs on everything and also more casting due to Aimed Shot. The trade off was generally higher damage, but it all felt so much more slower. It was very much for people who preferred caster gameplay while SV was for people who preferred the run-and-gun utilitarian style.

Also, you might notice that he gets multiple free Explosive Shots from one Lock and Load when it only had 2 charges. This is because back then Survival had a phenomenal 4-set bonus where Explosive Shot had a 40% chance to NOT consume a Lock and Load charge when used. You could get lucky and get some insane chaining of like 10-20 Explosive Shots, and back then Explosive Shot was the major part of your DPS. It's astonishing how far it's fallen: I just got my BM artifact weapon to 54 so I got my MM artifact to about level 30 real quick with the tokens I still had from raid and tried out the "meme build" on a dummy and holy SHIT Explosive Shot is god-awful. It makes it all the more insulting when people act like you can play MM now like SV used to play if you pick the right talents: no, no you can't. It's not even close. And a big part of that is the shittiness of Explosive Shot.

[Spl4sh3r]

Explosive Shot was not added until 3.0. I guess you are thinking of that period between October 14 2008 and November 13 2008 where the expansion wasn't out but the systems patch was: you did indeed have both Expose Weakness and Explosive Shot while doing BC raids. But that that point BC was more or less over and the game was transitioning to WotLK.

Well I guess it was without Explosive Shot then, but I like the idea of Explosive Shot as well. Was also the weird period with the dungeon set which gave you the Exposed Weakness proc. So you had Expose Weakness and Exposed Weakness

[Bepples]

Well I guess it was without Explosive Shot then, but I like the idea of Explosive Shot as well. Was also the weird period with the dungeon set which gave you the Exposed Weakness proc. So you had Expose Weakness and Exposed Weakness

What a lot of people don't remember is that Explosive Shot used to be like pre-7.1.5 Barrage where it would do a lot of ST damage to your main target but it would also do AoE damage to everything around it. It was such a cool and unique AoE for the time but sadly it was overnerfed just before 3.0 went live so it ended up being pretty underpowered. I don't know exactly when the removed the AoE component.

Survival wasn't perfect in 3.0 but it felt legitimately new and exciting with so much potential. They followed it up in 3.1 by adding Black Arrow and making Lock and Load more on-demand and reliable in general. It felt like the first time Survival stopped being some niche, forgotten spec and started being a true ranged DPS spec with its own identity and large following. WotLK-Cata-MoP was seriously a great time to be a Hunter. It's a shame Blizzard apparently decided Survival needed to be some unpopular niche spec again in Legion.....

[ozusteapot]

I really appreciate the length you went to for the post, FpicEail. It looked like loads of fun. Considering the fact that Survival is the least played spec in Legion, they might revert it back to being a ranged spec in the next expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

Also on the subject of Explosive Shot: It really does shine in Mythic Plus and cleave fights. You can safely use ES in 7 (or even 8, as you'll most definitely have to be on cake-eating duty during Trilliax) out of the 10 bosses of Nighthold. Of course, you'll need quite a bit of crit to have Explosive Shot give you those big jucy 3 million crits. More than 25%, 30% should be more than enough. Definitely grab the 2 set from Arcway + Court of Stars.

I tried playing BM but it feels like such a bore, I really don't see the point in continuing. Maybe once I get all 54 traits in MM I'll reconsider and play it for a bit.

The meme spec feels just like it sounds - a meme.

[Eapoe]

Of course I miss it. Played Hunter since I started playing the game. Know what else I miss?
I miss Armor Pen. I miss having to be hit capped and the hilarity of people being at 7% begging to be with a Draenai to reach 8%. I miss Defense caps. I miss DK's being able to dps as Blood. I miss DK's being able to DW tank as Frost or pet tank as Unholy. I miss TotT giving a damage buff. I miss Viper Sting and when Hunters used Mana (not so unthinkable when you consider their abilities are imbued with magic). I miss Priests spamming Bubbles all day long. I miss gauranteed crits on Undead for Paladins. I miss your long AV matches (yes, I know they went longer but this is from when I started). I miss PvP having its own armor and stats.
I miss lots of things. We either adapt and find other things we like or we stop playing. Some like to dwell and constantly whine about how much they miss something. I get it, it sucks when you lose something you're fond of. Personally, as someone who's played SV as often as possible since I started playing the game, I was ecstatic when it was announced to be going melee. Thats ME though. I don't speak for everyone, and I don't try to say things like MOST players, as I don't know. I could throw out quite a few anecdotes or personal stories of people I know, and myself, in favor of melee SV. Not needed though, as time will tell what happens to the spec and how well it does thru the history of the game. It can very well go down as the worst spec in history (probably not as Gladiator is going to be tough to beat), or it could become a very popular melee class. Won't know until everything is done.
As a whole, we can look at it now and say it's not well received and looked down on. That doesn't mean that a year from now we won't see them all over.

[Bepples]

We either adapt and find other things we like or we stop playing.

Or.... OR.... you actually voice your disdain for bad changes because you're actually free to criticise decisions you don't like. This is such a stupid approach to design critique, i.e. "don't do it, just adapt". If no one criticised changes they didn't like NOTHING would get fixed. So you can take your shit attitude and get lost in some other thread or something. I'm NOT required to just accept bad changes and shrug and say "oh well :3".

I don't speak for everyone, and I don't try to say things like MOST players, as I don't know.

Most players do not like melee hunters. And I KNOW that. If people liked melee hunters, Survival would not be the most unpopular spec in the game by such a large margin despite the constant stream of buffs flowing its way.

[magarac]

Survival always sucked. Nothing new.

[Eapoe]

Or.... OR.... you actually voice your disdain for bad changes because you're actually free to criticise decisions you don't like. This is such a stupid approach to design critique, i.e. "don't do it, just adapt". If no one criticised changes they didn't like NOTHING would get fixed. So you can take your shit attitude and get lost in some other thread or something. I'm NOT required to just accept bad changes and shrug and say "oh well :3".



Most players do not like melee hunters. And I KNOW that. If people liked melee hunters, Survival would not be the most unpopular spec in the game by such a large margin despite the constant stream of buffs flowing its way.

Voicing concern for design is one thing, to incessantly whine and mope about the "good old days," not reminiscing but moping, is not the same. No, you aren't required to, but you aren't voicing concern, you aren't talking about its faults other than "melee, blech," what you are doing is talking about a spec you used to love and how it's gone and how that's shit (which is a matter of opinion, not fact). It might not be what you want to happen, but it's what is happening, so adapt to it or post something constructive because saying my beloved spec is gone and I hate that is not constructive at all other than voicing displeasure.
You DONT KNOW THAT. What you do know is very few people are playing it. You don't know the reasons why. In an xpac with a class that people have wanted since BC, and the stigma that you constantly repeat "I play Hunter for ranged!" it's easy to see why it is taking time to catch on. In another forum people talked about m Guldan and a SV Hunter being there and it already started some people going "maybe I should try it."
I've constantly stated it is a process, and until the game or spec ends completely, only time will tell in a popularity contest.

[Bepples]

Voicing concern for design is one thing, to incessantly whine and mope about the "good old days," not reminiscing but moping, is not the same. No, you aren't required to, but you aren't voicing concern, you aren't talking about its faults other than "melee, blech," what you are doing is talking about a spec you used to love and how it's gone and how that's shit (which is a matter of opinion, not fact). It might not be what you want to happen, but it's what is happening, so adapt to it or post something constructive because saying my beloved spec is gone and I hate that is not constructive at all other than voicing displeasure.

It is voicing concern because we are saying that there is no real audience for a melee hunter; not at any significant level, at least. So removing a popular ranged spec and spending a whole bunch of time and effort implementing a melee spec in its place, when you know that there isn't much of an audience for such a thing to begin with, invokes the image of a game designer snorting coke at the office yelling delusions about fantasy and innovation. The class would absolutely be in a better place if Survival were still ranged. The class had more people playing it and far less dissent when Survival was a viable ranged spec. So arguing that the ranged spec should return is ABSOLUTELY constructive criticism for the class because we KNOW that it will make the class better.

Oh, and then there's the whole part where they screwed over a significant contingent of hunters by removing their spec and doing jack shit to make up for it, which is a "dick move" to say the least.

So how about you "adapt" to the fact that people are not happy with the state of things and are not obliged to just accept them and move on as you so desperately want them to.

You DONT KNOW THAT. What you do know is very few people are playing it. You don't know the reasons why.

What other reason could there be?

It can't be low damage, because Survival now outperforms the other two specs in both PvE and PvP.

It can't be playstyle, because Survival is so often hailed by its fanatics as the most fun spec in the game. I realise they exercise some cognitive dissonance and simultaneously argue that it's overcomplicated and cumbersome, but so are feral druids and way more people play that spec.

Maybe people just don't have the right artifacts/legendaries? Well, plenty of people have switched to BM from MM since 7.1.5 just fine, and BM's population is catching up rapidly to MM. Why has Survival been so stagnant?

I'll tell you what it could be: when the reaction of almost everyone online to Survival going melee was "good idea, but it's just not for me"... maybe the spec ended up being not "for" many people at all? Maybe there really weren't that many people interested in a melee hunter spec? Gee, who saw this coming? (everyone who wasn't delusional: that's who).

In an xpac with a class that people have wanted since BC

There was never any significant demand for melee hunters. It has always been primarily a meme, with a tiny niche of players thinking it would be a "neat idea".

and the stigma that you constantly repeat "I play Hunter for ranged!"

... that's not a stigma, that's what people want from the class. "Stigma" is purely reputation. While Survival has a bad reputation, people legitimately don't want to play it because most hunters do not want to play melee. You act like that's some unfounded claim, but it's a common-sense conclusion from the fact that people picked a class with 3 ranged specs and they certainly didn't do it expecting to be able to play a melee spec. If they wanted to play melee, they would have picked a class with melee.

it's easy to see why it is taking time to catch on.

It's been given time and it's NOT catching on. We are now more than 6 months into the expansion and there is no evidence to suggest that Survival is any more popular than when it started. Proportionally it just hasn't moved.

No other spec revamp has taken this long to "catch on". Paladins didn't require time to "catch on" after their numerous revamps (2.0, 3.0, and 4.0). Hell, SURVIVAL HUNTERS didn't need time to "catch on" in 3.0 when they were revamped then: that revamp actually made it more popular. Why does current Survival apparently need a whole damn expansion before people actually play it?

In another forum people talked about m Guldan and a SV Hunter being there and it already started some people going "maybe I should try it."

This doesn't mean shit. It's been weeks since that kill and, like I said, there's still no evidence that any more people are shifting to Survival. It is VERY telling of how desperate the Survival "community" is (if you could call a contingent of players that small a "community") when they are jumping for joy because they got ONE PERSON from their spec on an end boss kill; a spec that is the best performing of its class, mind you. Are MM hunters jumping for joy over the fact that there have been several MM hunters that have killed Gul'Dan? The mere fact that this is a major achievement for Survival is a red flag.

I've constantly stated it is a process, and until the game or spec ends completely, only time will tell in a popularity contest.

All that time and effort to develop a spec that MAY OR MAY NOT end up being played? At the cost of a spec that would GUARANTEE popularity as it has in the past? And you call that a good decision? Pathetic and delusional.

[JoshuaNLG]

I do miss the old Survival, but i enjoy the new survival too, kind of, a little bit.

I wish that when they have ideas to rework specs, they just implement the "rework idea" as an additional spec instead, who gives a shit if hunters have 4 specs.

[Baneador]

I preffer the melee survival, but they must do something about the rotation.