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  1. #21

  2. #22
    Good stuff, thanks so much!

  3. #23
    Are the Stellar Flares empowered?

  4. #24
    I am confused about one part.

    Why would Star Lord ever be good if we are using Starfall as our main AP Spender?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nuclayer View Post
    I am confused about one part.

    Why would Star Lord ever be good if we are using Starfall as our main AP Spender?
    Cause there will be times in a boss encounter where you want to just nuke 1 prioritytarget at some point, or in m+ when you are at a singeltargetbosses.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nuclayer View Post
    I am confused about one part.

    Why would Star Lord ever be good if we are using Starfall as our main AP Spender?
    Starlord isn't good when using Starfall as our AP spender. It's just that most fights are a mixture of ST and cleave, and in these instances Starlord is still the better option. So the comparison builds take this into account.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by spaceape View Post
    Are the Stellar Flares empowered?
    With Stellar Empowerment when Starfalling? Yes.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2017-01-14 at 02:01 PM.
    <Adorable> - OCE 16, US 93
    Slippykins - Armory - Logs - Wowprog

    Boomkin Theorycrafting (updated for 7.2.5) -- linky

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    So the problem was that in the APL you get when you import your character, you get a little line of code that says "/use_item,slot=trinket1" that my Modified APL doesn't have (because there are no on-use trinkets in the simmed set). So to fix it, just add the line of code back in.
    Tyvm mate! Simming for 520k now.

  8. #28
    You think it's worth getting both a haste/mastery focused set for ED/IFE in nighthold for "singletarget" bosses and a more heavy mastery built for fights where you use SD and m+? Or is there not a big difference in statweights?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shroomzy View Post
    You think it's worth getting both a haste/mastery focused set for ED/IFE in nighthold for "singletarget" bosses and a more heavy mastery built for fights where you use SD and m+? Or is there not a big difference in statweights?
    No real difference -- haste is also a very strong stat for cleave.
    <Adorable> - OCE 16, US 93
    Slippykins - Armory - Logs - Wowprog

    Boomkin Theorycrafting (updated for 7.2.5) -- linky

  10. #30
    Amazing work, though I'd like to know, does any of the Starsurge rotations take into account our 2P and 4P (since that directly-and-only buffs Starsurge rotations)?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    No real difference -- haste is also a very strong stat for cleave.
    Also regarding stats (for Memekin/Starfall), is it worth dropping roughly 10ish iLvls equipped to run an ED-stated 30% Haste build, or keeping my highest iLvl pieces on and running ~15% Haste but more Intellect/Mastery/Crit? I've been incredibly fortunate to get some 885-895 pieces that have NO HASTE, but I also have a ton of 860-870 pieces with Haste that I kept in case I got ED (which I did about a month ago), so I've been torn on what to use for Memekin now.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
    I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Amazing work, though I'd like to know, does any of the Starsurge rotations take into account our 2P and 4P (since that directly-and-only buffs Starsurge rotations)?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Also regarding stats (for Memekin/Starfall), is it worth dropping roughly 10ish iLvls equipped to run an ED-stated 30% Haste build, or keeping my highest iLvl pieces on and running ~15% Haste but more Intellect/Mastery/Crit? I've been incredibly fortunate to get some 885-895 pieces that have NO HASTE, but I also have a ton of 860-870 pieces with Haste that I kept in case I got ED (which I did about a month ago), so I've been torn on what to use for Memekin now.
    memekin is a spec that only works on Helya.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    memekin is a spec that only works on Helya.
    Did you read the OP? That statement is clearly false, esp with all the cleave fights coming in NH.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
    I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Did you read the OP? That statement is clearly false, esp with all the cleave fights coming in NH.
    There is no fights in NH where there are 20+ adds.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MV Kaa View Post
    There is no fights in NH where there are 20+ adds.
    Not sure if trolling or ignorant, but read the OP. 2 target DPS is higher with Starfall even if you have ED and you ignore Starsurging.

    2-Target Starsurging w/ ED:


    2-Target Starfalling w/ ED:
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
    I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Not sure if trolling or ignorant, but read the OP. 2 target DPS is higher with Starfall even if you have ED and you ignore Starsurging.

    2-Target Starsurging w/ ED:


    2-Target Starfalling w/ ED:
    Yes, please show me a fight in NH where you can stand still the whole fight and cleave on 2 targets, with no movement. Stop using sims as your "facts". It makes you look dumb. Shit, show me a fight in NH where there is 2 targets the whole fight that fit into your SF.

  16. #36
    Let's not bring this argument into this thread guys. I'm already working on something to examine what to do when a fight is a mixture of ST and x-target cleave.

    As for your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Amazing work, though I'd like to know, does any of the Starsurge rotations take into account our 2P and 4P (since that directly-and-only buffs Starsurge rotations)?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Also regarding stats (for Memekin/Starfall), is it worth dropping roughly 10ish iLvls equipped to run an ED-stated 30% Haste build, or keeping my highest iLvl pieces on and running ~15% Haste but more Intellect/Mastery/Crit? I've been incredibly fortunate to get some 885-895 pieces that have NO HASTE, but I also have a ton of 860-870 pieces with Haste that I kept in case I got ED (which I did about a month ago), so I've been torn on what to use for Memekin now.
    1) No, 2pc and 4pc set bonuses were not analysed here. They will favour ST builds over cleave builds, and will most likely make Starsurge the correct AP spender even with cheese cleave.

    2) 99% likely answer is a no. By dropping 10 ilvls overall, you're losing a lot of int and a lot of aggregate secondary stats. I would sim yourself in both sets of gear on 3 targets and see how it goes, but I'm fairly certain the 10 ilvl higher set will be much stronger.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2017-01-15 at 10:30 AM.
    <Adorable> - OCE 16, US 93
    Slippykins - Armory - Logs - Wowprog

    Boomkin Theorycrafting (updated for 7.2.5) -- linky

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post



    1) No, 2pc and 4pc set bonuses were not analysed here. They will favour ST builds over cleave builds, and will nost likely make Starsurge the correct AP spender even with cheese cleave.
    thank you, just wish people will stop thinking that memekin is a viable spec to be used even on single target when literally it only works on Helya because there is 90% of the time more than one target and a phase with 60 adds.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Let's not bring this argument into this thread guys. I'm already working on something to examine what to do when a fight is a mixture of ST and x-target cleave.

    As for your question:



    1) No, 2pc and 4pc set bonuses were not analysed here. They will favour ST builds over cleave builds, and will nost likely make Starsurge the correct AP spender even with cheese cleave.

    2) 99% likely answer is a no. By dropping 10 ilvls overall, you're losing a lot of int and a lot of aggregate secondary stats. I would sim yourself in both sets of gear on 3 targets and see how it goes, but I'm fairly certain the 10 ilvl higher set will be much stronger.
    Props, thanks Slippy
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.
    I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall.

  19. #39
    Alright so an update: now that we have explored what builds are good, when they're good, and what legendary interactions we have therein, we will now examine at what point should we consider swapping builds.

    For this next bit of analysis we will first define some terms:

    Single-target fight: A single-target (ST) fight is a fight with only one target and no cleave components, DoT or clumped.
    Cleave fight: A cleave fight is a fight where there are two or more targets stacked on top of each other.
    Hybrid fight: A hybrid fight is a fight that combines single-target and cleave together. A hybrid fight contains x% cleave component, meaning that x% of the fight is modelled as a cleave fight, and (1-x)% is modelled as single-target. We allow for x to vary from 0% to 100%. We also allow number of targets in the cleave to vary from 2 to 4.

    Now we will establish how we're going to conduct our investigation. The hard part is that SimCraft does not allow for the modelling of a Hybrid fight as defined above, so we need to use some interpolation techniques to model them. Let's first start with the simplest model: linear interpolation, a straight line.


    But there's a problem with linear interpolation: we assume that each 10% of cleave uptime gives a static amount of DPS, which in this case is 10% of the DPS difference between simmed 2-target DPS and single-target DPS.

    But we know this to be false -- because of AP pooling and delaying the use of cooldowns to line up with known cleave/burst phases, we can get more than 10% benefit from a fight with 10% cleave proportion. So, out goes the idea of linear interpolation.

    Instead, we want a concave function, which allows us to model the fact that even small amounts of cleave in a fight can be abused. So we will do the rest of the modelling with nonlinear interpolation techniques (namely quadratic). Some of you may notice that it looks very similar to a diminishing returns (DR) graph -- that's because it is.

    Now that we have the basis for our discussion, the rest of the post will look at the break-even points for five different builds, presented in some nice graphs. You can access the Excel spreadsheet that generated these graphs here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3h...ew?usp=sharing



    1. Base Case Analysis: No Legendaries







    So a little bit about the graphs first: the vertical axis is DPS, the horizontal axis is the proportion of the fight that involves the cleave part. Each build is a separate (coloured) line on the graph, and the part that we're most interested in is where they cross over each other. This implies that the builds are equivalent in DPS for that Hybrid fight type.

    In the first graph, we see that the two best builds (WoE/SotF/SS/SD and SL/Inc/BotA/SD) are even at about 20%. This means that for a fight with two targets for 20% of the time and one target for the remaining 80% these two builds will do roughly the same damage. Further to the right (ie. the longer the two target cleave is active), WoE/SotF/SS/SD will pull ahead significantly, but if you go left of the 20% then SL/Inc/BotA/SD is better.

    The second and third graphs say the same story, but at around 15% and 10% cleave proportion, respectively. This implies that the best cleave build (WoE/SotF/SS/SD, as expected) scales fairly well with the amount of targets. Noticeably, the builds have separated significantly by the time you have three-targets up for 100% of the fight. SL/Inc/SS/SD is always the second best build by 100% uptime, and the gap between it and SL/Inc/BotA/SD seems to widen while WoE/SotF/SS/SD stays fairly constant. This implies that SL/Inc/SS/SD is a consistent build that scales just as well if not better than its competitors.

    Overall, I'm surprised by how early the cleave-style builds take over. I would have eyeballed a 50% uptime on cleave for the cleave builds to dominate, but this is certainly implying as little as 10% is enough with 4+ targets.


    2. The Emerald Dreamcatcher Analysis







    The Emerald Dreamcatcher graphs tell a slightly different story. It takes a higher proportion of cleave in the two-target case for the cleave builds to take over, at about 30%. This continues for the other two graphs as well: about 25% for three-target and 20% for two-target. This implies that Boomkins with ED should be swapping to cleave builds less often than Boomkins without ED, as the benefit of being able to use ED and surgeweaving during the single-target components of the fight is a significant DPS increase.

    Importantly, SD seems to be a core talent even for ED users. You lose the infinite DoTs, but you can always refresh after surgeweaving has ended. Picking up SD allows you to benefit on cleave portions of fights, and SS is allowing for more surgweaving to happen (on 3+ targets it's generating more AP on average than BotA).


    3. Impeccable Fel Essence Analysis







    For IFE users we would expect that Incarnation builds should remain relevant for longer, and this is what we observe in the data. Like with the ED scenario, the break-even points for the 2, 3 and 4 target cleave graphs are approximately 30%, 20% and 15%, respectively. IFE users benefit from Incarnation moreso than other Boomkins, so considering a cleave-oriented build with Incarnation instead of SotF is a strong option. The gap between the top-performing build (WoE/SotF/SS/SD) at 100% 4-targets and the best build with Incarnation (SL/Inc/SS/SD) is relatively smaller than in the no legendary or ED scenarios. However, CA is still a strong cooldown and benefits from AP pooling quite significantly, which is shown in the WoE/SotF/SS/SD having higher DPS than in the other two sections above.


    4. Oneth's Intuition Analysis







    For OI, it seems the break-even points are similar to that of having no legendary at all -- about 20%, 18% and 15%. What's interesting about OI is that it doesn't seem to really interact with either Incarnation or SotF much at all. Instead, it interacts with SD much more: OI Boomkins are the only Boomkins where the SL/Inc/BotA/NB and SL/Inc/BotA/SD builds are almost equivalent for ST. This means that SD builds take over NB builds much quicker than non-OI Boomkin builds, and so it's understandable that the break-even points are similar to non-legendary Boomkins'.



    Overall, what to take from this analysis? Well there's a few things that pop out:

    • SD is very strong, and it is one of the reasons why we're doing so well at cleave in 7.1.5.
    • SotF is incredibly strong, but you need to pool AP and use it correctly to get maximum benefit from it in a fight where the cleave is only for a small percentage of the time.
    • It seems that there are some magic numbers: 30% for ED or IFE users and 20% otherwise. If you feel that you're cleaving for more than 30%(20%) of a fight, it's likely that a cleave-oriented build is your best option. Any more than that and you'll see some really good DPS.
    • We only explored up to 4 targets in this analysis. If you encounter a fight where there's 10 targets up for 10% of the time, you can bet on a cleave build being nuts on it.
    • WoE/SotF/SS/SD and SL/Inc/SS/SD are two very strong builds, both with their pros and cons.
    • Finally, caution should always be advised. Some cleave will be considered padding and not useful (see: Mythic Botanists), and some cleave will not get the same maximum DPS as seen in the simulations (due to the mobs being spread out too much, or movement, or both). As such, you should always critically think about the fight before committing to a build -- experiment! This analysis was just to help you on your way to making the right decision.

    Thanks for reading again! I will be analysing Nighthold trinkets next, so stay tuned. I should have the post up within the week.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2017-01-15 at 02:13 PM.
    <Adorable> - OCE 16, US 93
    Slippykins - Armory - Logs - Wowprog

    Boomkin Theorycrafting (updated for 7.2.5) -- linky

  20. #40
    Thank you for taking the time to conduct all the research. Its truly appreciated.

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