The state of the Arcane mage seems to be... super bad

[squid]

Without buffs or spec-specific legendaries and with 35 traits in both Arcane and Fire, my DPS on the boss target dummy shows arcane about 12% higher than fire on one target, and fire obviously pulls ahead of arcane with more targets and my dragon's breath legendary. Seems to be exactly as expected, here's some reasons you are seeing that difference on logs that aren't to do with Blizzards balance:

1. More players are currently more experienced at playing fire as it has been better up to last patch
2. Players have more fire specifc legendaries collected so far
3. Skilled mages with more investment in their character are playing fire over other specs, affecting the bell curve
4. Fights with more adds for ignite/living bomb/etc are what fire is designed for
5. You currently only have a pool of three example fights to go off of for progression
6. Pressure from people like you and non-mages thinking fire is the only viable option forces mages into playing and progressing that spec, affecting logs

[Deleted]

I have made a post in the Blizzard forums, as hopefully someone will see it and add something for us as well the next hotfix/tunning, but I also decided to post my thoughts here as to keep a discussion. Down are my thoughts on the few days of personal testing and logs observation and things do not look bright at all for Arcane to me.

Let's start with logs. We are literally last in ToV out of all the other specs and classes and almost last in EN (cannot post links yet, I am afraid). My biggest concern is not that we are particularly on the bottom of the logs (there has to be someone there after all), my problem comes from that fire outperforms Arcane (and Frost in that instance) by a huge margin. Some logs go to a 100-200k difference in DPS. (471k is Arcane top mage for Helya Mythic and top Fire mage is 687k DPS), and the lowest difference in ToV Mythic is 40k on Odyn.

In EN the things do not look much brighter between Fire and the other 2 specs which are hugely outperformed. Il'Gynoth seems to be a big outlier as the Arcane spec is higher than Fire for the top of the logs, but it is important to notice that the first Arcane mage is at 586k DPS and the second one is at 512k DPS, while fire's top performer is at 525k with a rather steadier drop down the line. Elerethe Renferal is a new curious case. The top fire performer is at 839k and the second one is at 708k, yet between the top Fire and Arcane the difference is as much as 220k DPS (???). I can continue comparing logs and DMG meters, but I think that the point is getting more clear now. It is not a simple 10-20k DPS difference, but one that is ridiculously huge between the specs.

Another thing I have noticed while practicing on a target dummy is that between AM procs my DPS can drop for a matter of a second up to 140k DPS down, which does sound problematic as well (burst is huge, but the steadiness seems go be lacking a lot).

I would not be as annoyed and disappointed for investing into arcane if, let's say, all 3 specs were equally low on the logs (like hunters now, yet they are all getting a significant buff to all specs), but the problem is that 1 spec is performing extra good and the other 2 seem to be very left behind. Even though the EN and ToV logs cannot be taken as 100% accurate as the time for testing was extremely low between the patch 7.1.5 application and now, yet the initial data is very worrisome. And the truth is that I cannot see how Nighthold gear would be able to fix this huge gaps between the specs, as the top performers will also get their hands on that gear and the set bonuses, so logically the gap should stay or even increase depending on scaling (assuming that fire should scale rather good with crit stats rising).

I really hope that the devs look on these things and really take into consideration some kind of a buff for both Arcane and Frost so that we can at least be relevant until we get 2 legendaries for Fire and change the spec (I personally invested all in Arcane and if I go Fire now will be stuck with 2 legendaries which will not be anything else than "stat sticks"). I really hope that this reaches the responsibles for these matters and that there are some Arcane and Frost adjustments as well for next reset's hotfix/tunning before Nighthold.

Please share your thoughts on the matters as I already have put my lootspec to Fire...

Nope - fire and arcane are currently on the same level and arcane pulling ahead in NH due to itemization and scaling with gear. People just don't have legendaries and weapons for arcane so they are sticking with fire, but i have basically the same results on most bosses as other mage in our guild that plays arcane - so problem might not be in arcane.

[Deleted]

stats weights are changing. BiS are changing. and, talents to use are changing too.
give it some more time and you will see that arcane will be better on ST.

[klaps_05]

the APLs arcane and frost use for sims are very hard to execute on the fights in NH. In total there are 2 bosses where you might switch to Arcane, but assuming you get to Guldan, Fire will be the only one that matters due to adds.

[Atherius]

Save the complaining for after NH and make sure that if you compare logs between players, they both have similar number of traits and similiar %dps legendaries. All 3 specs as of right now are fine..

[Nico3337]

I'm a bit concerned with our 4-set tho, wish it would reduce the cd for overpowered by 1 second with each missile instead

[Deleted]

This is my armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Nistiq/simple

Should I switch over to arcane and farm arcane legendaries? Or should I stay fire and farm the fire legendaries, I got the head for fire and the sh*tty boots.

[schwarzkopf]

My Arcane mage is doing WAY better than before, I have a bit less mana - but am going way better over all for ST and pretty much just as good AoE.
The extra mobility 7.1.5 added is very nice too.

PS: iLvl 878, have TW legendary, mastery heavy build (40%+) ... and AoE relics (because nothing ST has dropped), also long time Arcane player. Never played Fire seriously.

[twistedmynd]

The mythic helya average arcane dps being below 500k seems off to me, but w/e.

Regardless of which spec is performing better on the best world rankings, you're going to perform best with the spec that you have legendaries for and that you've invested the most AP in.

Forgetting numbers for a moment, the biggest turn off after the revamp for me is that arcane isn't that fun to play. Doing big dumb bursts with overpowered lessened the skill gap for a lot of players, but it's kind of stale.

Something being overlooked is that mirror images have a bigger coefficient on cast now AND they correctly benefit from arcane power. I've been trying out alternative talent combinations this week so I can hit nighthold with a better understanding of how to do better dps for the different fights, but I don't have the legendary time warp ring. I suspect if I did (or if I had gnawed thumb ring+better racials), mirror images might be pulling my attention more.

But I got a mythic wriggling sinew trinket halfway through the week, so instead of doing further testing on Incanter's Flow+Temporal Flux I've been joining the masses and doing Rune of Power+Overpowered.

[D3athsting]

I sim 60-50k higher with fire than arcane but i have lv 43 artifact and fire bracers+belt

[lockybalboa]

From my experience doing some M+ with arcane mages, they are pretty good for burst and boss fights, but totally sucky for trash dps which is really impt for M+s

[yarafx1]

Mage as a class is actually on the low end of the totem pole for actual dps when you sub out the cheese fight from EN, and TOV is pretty awful for us.

Temporal Flux needs to be baked into the spec like it was in WOD or the Kilt ability baked into Barrage, I'm on my 10th paragon in arcane and fire and frost both at 37 and I am re-rolling a lock for a NH. Our damage is just pretty shit. We're very low to bottom of the pack and don't provide allot to raid comps anymore. We can soak a mechanic every now and then. But eh, locking it until hot fixes come in, still gonna get my 4 set and see how it does.

- - - Updated - - -

From my experience doing some M+ with arcane mages, they are pretty good for burst and boss fights, but totally sucky for trash dps which is really impt for M+s

This is entirely wrong, Arcane Power / AE / Barrage is a shit ton of damage and not hard to maintain several million dps. I feel great in mythic + its just raids I feel like a awful class in.

[Stuthedog]

This is entirely wrong, Arcane Power / AE / Barrage is a shit ton of damage and not hard to maintain several million dps. I feel great in mythic + its just raids I feel like a awful class in.

Yep, with the 25% extra barrage damage per target hit talent plus the barrage explosion talent Arcane AOE is pretty damn strong and almost competitive with fire as long as there aren't an unreasonable amount of enemies for LB to massacre.

Arcane cleave sucks, but you can't win em all.

[Nitros14]

Arcane in nighthold is pushed up by aoe fights like Scorpyron and Aluriel, on single target or cleave it's basically tied for worst spec in the game.

Ice Floes removal and need for slipstream over shimmer was a massive hit to our ability to do damage while doing mechanics.

We basically have to talent to get our cast while moving back and lose shimmer, where we had both before.

Add in much slower casts overall and it's ugly on movement intensive fights.

[Geldor]

I'm seeing some really bad, out of touch posts here, and just a few posters with their feet anchored on the firm ground of real world performance, logs and sims taken together. I'm not gonna quote the fantasy posts, just discuss some of the claims:

- numbers are fine, all 3 specs are OK.

No they are not. One spec is below mid. 2 specs are close to bottom. The issue is the lack of mobility and the fight requiring execution of mechanics, coupled with OTHER SPECS (!!!...) that are buffed to insane levels and routinely pull 200k above Arcane (since this is what we're discussing) on ANY Nighthold heroic encounter, since Mythic is still closed. And Mythic will be worse, you can bet on it, more mechanics, more movement=less mage DPS

- let's talk after Nighthold, just chill until you get (sets, trinket, DPS legendary, 915 weapon, 54 traits etc. etc. etc.)

Well, yes, there is a certain level where a raider is "geared enough" for Nighthold progression. As a mage myself and raid leader, I'd say that is 54 traits, 885-895 ilvl, decent trinkets, one useful/DPS legendary, a 900+ weapon, preferably above 905 and experience with the spec. After we're already there and the spec still does worse than many other specs, and from PTR testing of trinkets and sets they do NOT look like the lifesaver some try to make them to be, I can say that NO, this is a game we pay for, we cannot languish in a bad state for months until discussion, early is better. I'd still wait 2 weeks, which is also sadly the amount of time needed for Nighthold progression, but what can one do.

- nobody plays arcane, nobody has good relics, nobody really knows how to play it, every good mage plays Fire, so we can't judge

You would be surprised to know how many mages endured through the Tempest spam/Quickening eras, and how many dedicated mages Arcane and Frost have. You would be surprised to know that good players almost maxed BOTH Felo'melorn and Aluneth/Ebonchill, and got decent relics and trinkets for all specs from months of farming EN/ToV/M+. Yes, fewer than fire, but still many geared ones.

If the points made in this topic were really valid, Survival would be at the bottom with Arcane and Frost, cause "nobody is playing it", yet Survival is good enough to be top in Nighthold. Mages have no top spec, basically. We're a pure DPS class, like locks rogues, we should have at least one spec that can easily top 3, maybe Arcane on ST, Fire AoE, Frost cleave. But this is NOT the reality. So stop deceiving yourselves that everything is fine, it's not. This spec has pushed 1M+ burst in HFC, that was a good spot, not nowadays in the last 3.

So you are saying this: www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#dataset=100, www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#, http://www.warcraftlogs.com/statisti...0&difficulty=4, www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#difficulty=4

is a good spot for arcane? Yes, sure, if you are an arcane mage, I guess so. But don't be surprised if not everyone agrees that this is how rankings always should look like.

Arcane does not score worse than in EN or TOV, it's relatively better actually. The mage spec which has fallen most in comparison to EN and TOV is fire.

That said, all three don't do well at the moment as you mention. Still a bit early to say though how this turns out. It's totally possible that they buff arcane next week. They said they are not done with balancing specs yet.

[Deleted]

Arcane in nighthold is pushed up by aoe fights like Scorpyron and Aluriel, on single target or cleave it's basically tied for worst spec in the game.

Ice Floes removal and need for slipstream over shimmer was a massive hit to our ability to do damage while doing mechanics.

We basically have to talent to get our cast while moving back and lose shimmer, where we had both before.

Add in much slower casts overall and it's ugly on movement intensive fights.

Are we playing the same game? Arcane is super strong for ST.

[Deleted]

Are we playing the same game? Arcane is super strong for ST.

Yeah, it's absolutely amazing as shown in these logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1842

I don't know about you guys, but playing mage in nighthold yesterday was nothing short of frustrating for me. Sure, we're absolutely excellent at padding meters. Yay, right?

Well, Blizzard can shove LB up their asses; barely anyone cares about meter padding.

[Nitros14]

Are we playing the same game? Arcane is super strong for ST.

Logs don't bear that out.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...11/#metric=dps

This guy seems to be fine on his arcane atm most of mage players are juat... bad. I can't recall when i had a good mage in my group. Most of them are fotm players who even can't execute the rotation and position themselves

[Lebanese Dude]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...11/#metric=dps

This guy seems to be fine on his arcane atm most of mage players are juat... bad. I can't recall when i had a good mage in my group. Most of them are fotm players who even can't execute the rotation and position themselves

He's a great player, but a lot of it has to do with having Shard of the Exodar. Having 2 Time Warps while taking Overpowered is not a joke.