Breath Frost build vs Clawing Shadows Unholy in 7.1.5

[dmchellfire]

Hi all

So with the stale state of Unholy in 7.1, I pretty much stuck it out in UH until I reached 35 on my Artifact, and the only UH leg I ever got was Uvanimor, then left it in the dust since Frost was just performing so much better

The RA/Oblit build did great on single targets, but my luck with Legendaries was just non existent as I kept getting back to back utility legendaries and nothing that increases DPS

I collected tons of "extra" gear along the way though, and after the buff to Clawing Shadows and some gear switching, I am able to get to 94% Mastery in Unholy on my ilvl 887 Unholy DK, and I am pulling close to a mil on my opener, sometimes over with lust and old war, and dps comes down to around the 400k region over long fights

The sims seem very off, so i don't want to rely on that for information at the moment, but lets say hypothetically, for this tier, would it be best to stick Frost and try my luck in getting the belt+ring combo for the BoS build to shine, or stay Unholy and attempt to get either belt or wrists for synergy with Uvanimor in Clawing Shadows?

The 4-Piece in UH along with the Guldan trinket suggests that UH will pull ahead this tier, but want some more opinions as I have only seen threads discussing each individually, but none comparing BoS vs CS directly

Edit - Frost level 40, UH level 37 - I am in a Mythic Progression guild, so this decision will be for Nighthold progression.

Thanks for the read

[Deleted]

It's still speculative as we don't have parses from people in that gear yet, so its gut feeling and looking at sim data pretty much.
Probably going to boil down to stick with what you want to play or just play both like some do depending on the fight and switch between.

[Thorbalt]

play whats fun. the reason i never touched a hunter or frost mage until 7.0 is the same reason why i wont touch unholy dks, probably ever. I. HATE. PETS.

and i really hate that unholy is the only spec forced to have a stupid pet when both hunters and frost mages got the choice to axe theirs out completely

[Ange]

The 4-Piece in UH along with the Guldan trinket suggests that UH will pull ahead this tier, but want some more opinions as I have only seen threads discussing each individually, but none comparing BoS vs CS directly

I got only Koltiras + 3 utility legendarys with 50 artefact in Frost and 35 in Unholy. I never liked the BoS playstyle (in WoD) and don't really like it now with Frost either, because of the struggle to keep a good breath uptime when the boss/target has to be moved.

I like how the max Logs for OBRA and some Gathering Storm hybrid specs are not far away from the lucky Breath logs, so atleast for now I don't feel forced into the BoS playstyle.

I did some boss trys with Unholy-35 889-85%mastery gear and I was not satisfied with the results.
On the other hand getting a good 1.5-2M opener as Frost needs only 4 globals (Remorseless Winter: Obliterate -> Obliterate -> Howling Blast -> Sindragosa: starting Obliteration with 1 Rune left) and you continue with the fluid high sustain OBRA DPS.

For me its sad to see unholy in such a bad position even in raids, since a pre pull army is a precondition to even keep up with OBRA Frost and thats something you don't even have in mythic+ with its silly 10min cooldown.

Even worse for Unholy, Frost works with high crit, high mastery or high versatility. Thats something I cannot ignore with my bad luck at item drops/legendary drops.

Even though I like the Unholy 2h visual style and Pet aspect more, I will stay as Frost because of the vast number of advantages with the spec.

[Deleted]

I love the BoS style and UH.

I think people who enjoy BoS will also enjoy UH(and vice versa). It's kinda like pushing the right buttons during the window(when you activate BoS or your uptime on various debuffs as UH).

In terms of DPS - time will tell. It's better to level both weapons to 35+ rather than not(if nothing else, it would be because they perform differently from fight to fight and you can choose the optimal. No legendary/gear can outperform that).

1 thing is 100%: Frost for higher burst(zero ramp up time - perfectly capable of target swapping etc.); UH for less burst, but higher sustained DPS(more ramp up time, but stabile DPS). It's very obvious when you try them both out.

[dmchellfire]

My Frost is currently on level 40 compared to UH at level 37 currently, so both are in an okay place

[Saltysquidoon]

i really hate that unholy is the only spec forced to have a stupid pet when both hunters and frost mages got the choice to axe theirs out completely

Seeing as how it looking like BM's going to be the hot shit after maint this week that's not really true. Also expecting the spec that was originally the necromancer class back during WotLK dev and got pushed towards that even more with legions whole 'class fantasy' focus not to have a pet is really pushing into the unrealistic expectations zone.

My suspicion is in theory with perfect gear on patchwerk its going to go; BoS Frost, Unholy, OBRA frost.
In reality taking into a lot of fights favour unholy in NH unholy would generally be the better spec on prog.

[farza]

1 thing is 100%: Frost for higher burst(zero ramp up time - perfectly capable of target swapping etc.); UH for less burst, but higher sustained DPS(more ramp up time, but stabile DPS). It's very obvious when you try them both out.

loled hard. Do we play the same game?

[Elerubard]

loled hard. Do we play the same game?

That confused me too. Outside of Fury, frost doesn't really have a burst ability. Breath isn't really one because it only becomes viable if you can keep it up for 45+ seconds.

[Deleted]

Im peaking 1m+ on opener with hero and pot...is frost even close to that?

[Deleted]

My stats, ilevel and legendary items are virtual the same as the OP, however Frost is at Artifact 43 and Unholy is 37.

I've not tried the BoS rotation since I don't have the stronger legendary items to support it, i.e. the ring and belt, and I never enjoyed the rotation in WoD (but back then you could use it with the unholy spec).

On ST and as Unholy, I'm pretty much hitting my sims on Guarm (430k @4 minutes) and using the OBRA spec in 7.1 I'm hitting around the same give or take 20k DPS.

I think for me, without the 4-set it's hard to judge which will be stronger. I will certainly play both, (FSc/GA) for M+ and potentially Unholy for raids..but it's the legendary loot specialization that has me at odds. Do I pray for the UH bracers to drop (I already have the belt, much prefer the ring though) or do I hope for 2 seemingly mandatory leggos for frost (ideally ring first and then belt) for the BoS playstyle/uptime....which I could learn to love as I did with Unholy back in WoD.

A tough one for me.

[Deleted]

Im peaking 1m+ on opener with hero and pot...is frost even close to that?

You'd be surprised, being able to maintain 800k for over a minute is pretty cool with BOS/GS build (no pun untended) whilst people dip below 600k after their initial burst. Its one of those, see how things parse a few weeks in when people have the gear for their builds. Good players will gravitate to the spec that performs better if it's in their reach.

[Deleted]

Im peaking 1m+ on opener with hero and pot...is frost even close to that?

Yes it is, I peak 850k+ on ST and 1m+ on MT.
Thats with Storm-Breath (Gathering Storm + BoS).

[Deleted]

Yes it is, I peak 850k+ on ST and 1m+ on MT.
Thats with Storm-Breath (Gathering Storm + BoS).

i 878 with wq mastery trinkets.

926k cs with 840 angerboda trinket though...

[Protean]

play whats fun. the reason i never touched a hunter or frost mage until 7.0 is the same reason why i wont touch unholy dks, probably ever. I. HATE. PETS.

and i really hate that unholy is the only spec forced to have a stupid pet when both hunters and frost mages got the choice to axe theirs out completely

I guess demonology warlocks don't exist anymore.

[Schizoide]

BoS builds will outperform others on 1 or 2 cleave targets. With 7.1.5 buffs it's less of a high risk/high reward talent than a small risk/high reward one-- it will beat Obliteration on fights with movement even without high uptime, but you do need to orient your entire build and playstyle around it. Obviously this is a raid-only playstyle, it is not appropriate for mythic+ or world quests, and only on raid bosses with 1-2 targets.

[Deleted]

loled hard. Do we play the same game?

Obviously not. Mind correcting me?

- - - Updated - - -

That confused me too. Outside of Fury, frost doesn't really have a burst ability. Breath isn't really one because it only becomes viable if you can keep it up for 45+ seconds.

Did you know, that 1 Obli(with KM)equals 6+wounds plus Apoc as UH? For the UH it takes around 3 GCD's as MIN(that is with max RNG on your side - on avg. you will use 5 GCD's plus 1.5min CD), where Frost is using 1-2 GCD's. Frost loses its burst, as they are generating less Runes after CDs, where UH is weaving stuff in constantly(hence higher sustained DPS). BoS will ensure that your sustained is higher, when your Runes are on CD, if you can keep it up.

Do you see the picture now? Or don't you see that burst comes from Obli hits, something that only are dependent on Runes.

Just ask PvP'ers on how Frost is performing and how much DPS they can dish out in few sec.

I feel stupid when people are challenging me at a casual level.

[farza]

Can't stop laughing.
We were arguing back in days and i don't want to do it again. Thank you.

[Halliax]

Hi guys, first, I like both specs. Got 4 legendaries: Prydaz, Acherus Drape, Seal of Necrofantasia and the Helm(forgot the name), got some good results with BoS+Freezing Fog (tries on M Odyn, should change to HoV on Guarm) and Gathering Storm + my 2 Frost Legs. He is my doubt, I will continue playing as frost, but would you change your loot spec to unholy and hope for the bracers(so I can change specs if needed)? or keep as frost and try to get the wirst or waist? My frost artifact is rank 54, and unholy is 36.

[Deleted]

Did you know, that 1 Obli(with KM)equals 6+wounds plus Apoc as UH?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&source=129

Let's take the BIGGEST Obliterate done : 419 k + 291 k = 710k

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=6

Let's take the AVERAGE (because i'm nice) 6 wounds plus apoc done : 214k*6+393k = 1677k

I feel stupid when people are challenging me at a casual level.

Please stop, my sides can only go so far in orbit.