resto worst healer atm?

[Deleted]

What makes them good for world first progression is not applicable to 99% of the player base. I'm still baffled as to how people look at what world first guilds do as evidence of...well...anything.

it's not applicable to the players who won't care about performance

[Deleted]

can only do 400k hps heroic botanist and other heals go over 500k, are we bad or only usable in 30man raid <.<

"resto worst healer atm?"
lulz
Resto is ultra strong when it is needed the most. Noone cares about HPS as long as noone dies from lack of healing.

[Sageless]

"resto worst healer atm?"
lulz
Resto is ultra strong when it is needed the most. Noone cares about HPS as long as noone dies from lack of healing.

Why does this argument always come up when we talk about healers but never when it is about dps? Can you even imagine the outcry if you were told: Mages will be 10% behind every other dps class on content, but hey at least on farm they will be even worse


Fact is that healing throughput wise resto is currently 10% behind the other healers on progression content.
Combine this with the argument that our mastery is strongest on progression content (and therefor shouldn't complain we are even worse on farm fights) and even the most dense person should see there is an issue. But hey luckily they gave us awesome legendaries and tier sets to keep it interesting right #sarcasm.

But it's a dead horse at this point and unlikely to be corrected this tier. It's not like you're completely useless as you still bring SLT which can be very potent on the first kill on some of the fights. It's just that on most fights you would be more usefull if you had rolled any other healing class.

[Nithian]

Why does this argument always come up when we talk about healers but never when it is about dps? Can you even imagine the outcry if you were told: Mages will be 10% behind every other dps class on content, but hey at least on farm they will be even worse


Fact is that healing throughput wise resto is currently 10% behind the other healers on progression content.
Combine this with the argument that our mastery is strongest on progression content (and therefor shouldn't complain we are even worse on farm fights) and even the most dense person should see there is an issue. But hey luckily they gave us awesome legendaries and tier sets to keep it interesting right #sarcasm.

But it's a dead horse at this point and unlikely to be corrected this tier. It's not like you're completely useless as you still bring SLT which can be very potent on the first kill on some of the fights. It's just that on most fights you would be more usefull if you had rolled any other healing class.

If this is what you choose to whine about you shouldn't be healing. You should dps, you'd enjoy it more and as an added bonus your love of whining would fit in and make much more sense.

[Kaizenberg]

Why does this argument always come up when we talk about healers but never when it is about dps? Can you even imagine the outcry if you were told: Mages will be 10% behind every other dps class on content, but hey at least on farm they will be even worse


Fact is that healing throughput wise resto is currently 10% behind the other healers on progression content.
Combine this with the argument that our mastery is strongest on progression content (and therefor shouldn't complain we are even worse on farm fights) and even the most dense person should see there is an issue. But hey luckily they gave us awesome legendaries and tier sets to keep it interesting right #sarcasm.

But it's a dead horse at this point and unlikely to be corrected this tier. It's not like you're completely useless as you still bring SLT which can be very potent on the first kill on some of the fights. It's just that on most fights you would be more usefull if you had rolled any other healing class.

A big strength RShaman bring is the ability to stabilize a raid after heavy damage spikes. If they are within 10% of other healers they are in a good spot as Chain Heal is one of the few relatively smart aoe heals left in the game that has a tendency to hit those who need it (compared to a Druids Wild Growth which basically hits whatever it wants). Their effective healing might be 10% lower but their overhealing is among the lowest in the game indicating their heals are very impactful at critical moments. Spirit Link Totem is also in the same tier as Mass Grip by Blood DK's; You don't need it for most fights but those you do it truly shines on (I'llganoth Mythic, Chromatic Anomoly, etc.).

That being said they are probably the ONLY healer you want to avoid having more than one of.

[Jynus]

"resto worst healer atm?"
lulz
Resto is ultra strong when it is needed the most. Noone cares about HPS as long as noone dies from lack of healing.

the problem is every other class is stronger in the same use cases.

Shaman are dead last in mythic progression. By a significant margin. The healing content where healing is needed most.

[Koor]

A big strength RShaman bring is the ability to stabilize a raid after heavy damage spikes. If they are within 10% of other healers they are in a good spot as Chain Heal is one of the few relatively smart aoe heals left in the game that has a tendency to hit those who need it (compared to a Druids Wild Growth which basically hits whatever it wants). Their effective healing might be 10% lower but their overhealing is among the lowest in the game indicating their heals are very impactful at critical moments. Spirit Link Totem is also in the same tier as Mass Grip by Blood DK's; You don't need it for most fights but those you do it truly shines on (I'llganoth Mythic, Chromatic Anomoly, etc.).

That being said they are probably the ONLY healer you want to avoid having more than one of.

Chain heal is great, but note that druid's wild growth in legion is a fully smart heal as well, it was changed during the beta due to outcry of druids

[mcbubble]

Why does this argument always come up when we talk about healers but never when it is about dps? Can you even imagine the outcry if you were told: Mages will be 10% behind every other dps class on content, but hey at least on farm they will be even worse


Fact is that healing throughput wise resto is currently 10% behind the other healers on progression content.
Combine this with the argument that our mastery is strongest on progression content (and therefor shouldn't complain we are even worse on farm fights) and even the most dense person should see there is an issue. But hey luckily they gave us awesome legendaries and tier sets to keep it interesting right #sarcasm.

But it's a dead horse at this point and unlikely to be corrected this tier. It's not like you're completely useless as you still bring SLT which can be very potent on the first kill on some of the fights. It's just that on most fights you would be more usefull if you had rolled any other healing class.

Well said!

[Deleted]

the problem is every other class is stronger in the same use cases.

Shaman are dead last in mythic progression. By a significant margin. The healing content where healing is needed most.

Could you please tell that to all the guilds progressing or that progressed mythic Star Augur? As all of them used or are using a resto shaman...

- - - Updated - - -

Why does this argument always come up when we talk about healers but never when it is about dps? Can you even imagine the outcry if you were told: Mages will be 10% behind every other dps class on content, but hey at least on farm they will be even worse


Fact is that healing throughput wise resto is currently 10% behind the other healers on progression content.
Combine this with the argument that our mastery is strongest on progression content (and therefor shouldn't complain we are even worse on farm fights) and even the most dense person should see there is an issue. But hey luckily they gave us awesome legendaries and tier sets to keep it interesting right #sarcasm.

But it's a dead horse at this point and unlikely to be corrected this tier. It's not like you're completely useless as you still bring SLT which can be very potent on the first kill on some of the fights. It's just that on most fights you would be more usefull if you had rolled any other healing class.

You are wrong, again.
IF you were right, and you are not, guilds would just stack 1 or 2 DPS classes. But they don't. Various classes bring various utility, some are good at burst st/aoe, some at sustained, some have great execution, and so on, and so on. Check warcraft logs for say, HC Gul'dan: ALL classes are represented in the top 50 parses.

[Deleted]

Why does this argument always come up when we talk about healers but never when it is about dps? Can you even imagine the outcry if you were told: Mages will be 10% behind every other dps class on content, but hey at least on farm they will be even worse


Fact is that healing throughput wise resto is currently 10% behind the other healers on progression content.
Combine this with the argument that our mastery is strongest on progression content (and therefor shouldn't complain we are even worse on farm fights) and even the most dense person should see there is an issue. But hey luckily they gave us awesome legendaries and tier sets to keep it interesting right #sarcasm.

But it's a dead horse at this point and unlikely to be corrected this tier. It's not like you're completely useless as you still bring SLT which can be very potent on the first kill on some of the fights. It's just that on most fights you would be more usefull if you had rolled any other healing class.

imagine mages contributed another effective 200k dps but it was invisible to the meter whoring retards

then you have your answer

[Jynus]

Could you please tell that to all the guilds progressing or that progressed mythic Star Augur? As all of them used or are using a resto shaman...

- - - Updated - - -



You are wrong, again.
IF you were right, and you are not, guilds would just stack 1 or 2 DPS classes. But they don't. Various classes bring various utility, some are good at burst st/aoe, some at sustained, some have great execution, and so on, and so on. Check warcraft logs for say, HC Gul'dan: ALL classes are represented in the top 50 parses.

They are using a shaman for the EXACT same reason that a shaman was in for many other world first progression. Niche abilities. I'm baffled that we can be this far into a games existence and people still not understand this. World firsts in LK had Rshaman. Because they are good? No, because they were the only class that had hero, and rshaman was less worse than dps shaman. For early cata, all world firsts had a shaman. Because they were good? No, they were always dead last, but had mana tide so they could feed actual good healers. This expansion is no different. Shaman are without question gimped compared to other healers, but they have spirit link. The reality is, without that one niche totem, there would be 0 healer shaman in every world first.

It's OK to tell it like it is, shaman are an underperforming healer with a couple abilities that make them must haves in certain content. Content that is not applicable to 99% of players or guilds. And it will be exactly the same this expansion likely as the other previous 4. They will continually get buffed as the expansion rolls until they get to a point where they are tops.

Which is another topic that I wonder how people can be so blind. At the start of every xpack there are no shortage of people blathering on about how shaman are fine, l2h, world firsts use them, etc. They why do they continually get buffed? You can't have it both ways. If they are fine, then non stop buffs wouldn't be rolling in. Which is exactly what's going to happen here. Buffs will start rolling in as logs show shaman are far far behind.

[ItsTiddles]

Restoration shamans are brought by top guilds because of what they bring to the table in a non-meter topping way. If they had that and topped the meters, they would be nerfed. If you want to ignore the top because they don't represent the majority of the player base, then you shouldn't be looking at mythic parses at all. Let's consider average people in average guilds with average parses. Heroic parses, 60th percentile, we're less than 20k hps from the healer at the top. Normal parses, 60th percentile, again less than 20k hps from the top.

"Well I didn't mean the real majority of raiders, just the good ones that aren't in the top 50."

Heroic parses, 80th-99th percentile: still less than 20k hps from the top.

TL;DR - We're not the top on the meters and we shouldn't be.

[mcbubble]

-snip-

TL;DR - We're not the top on the meters and we shouldn't be.

HAHAHA...what?!

[ItsTiddles]

HAHAHA...what?!

If meters is the only thing you care about, you're gonna have a bad time.

Edit:

If you had to pick the order you'd prefer for healing ranks, what order would you want in terms of pure output?

[Deleted]

It's OK to tell it like it is, shaman are an underperforming healer with a couple abilities that make them must haves in certain content. Content that is not applicable to 99% of players or guilds.

I fail to see how shaman abilities become any less useful on the lower end of content. People talk like spirit link is the only thing we bring. Ancestral Vigor gives an almost permanent +10% to tank health. Tide, AG, Ascendance all huge raid HPS cooldowns and are flexible in terms of how many of them you want to spec into.

You're not wrong, shamans do need a slight tweak to their numbers. But they're not behind to the point that you would ever want to exclude them, unlike mistweavers up until recently.

If they were going to give us a buff I'd say it should be to Healing Stream Totem. Would make the set bonus more attractive whilst they were at it, and wouldn't be too overstated - medium CD and easy to control without overdoing it.

But no, resto is completely fine. I feel more useful on this class than most of my healing alts.

[bigsuirlife]

resto and ele shares the same equip?

[Gunwolf]

Could you please tell that to all the guilds progressing or that progressed mythic Star Augur? As all of them used or are using a resto shaman...


You are wrong, again.
IF you were right, and you are not, guilds would just stack 1 or 2 DPS classes. But they don't. Various classes bring various utility, some are good at burst st/aoe, some at sustained, some have great execution, and so on, and so on. Check warcraft logs for say, HC Gul'dan: ALL classes are represented in the top 50 parses.

I have to agree with u... looking at the most recent logs for mythic NH, the most popular healers are Rdruid>Hpally>Rshaman. Most raids bring those 3 healers atleast. That should be an indicator of something.

Mythic NH Healer logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#metric=hps

Now... mythic logs in general don't have many parses yet so its not the most reliable statistically speaking but still, if people insist we look at mythics then there u have it. Resto Shaman's output is lower then the other healers, but they are still the 3rd most popular..... prob because they bring alot to a raid aside from just heals.

They are using a shaman for the EXACT same reason that a shaman was in for many other world first progression. Niche abilities. I'm baffled that we can be this far into a games existence and people still not understand this. World firsts in LK had Rshaman. Because they are good? No, because they were the only class that had hero, and rshaman was less worse than dps shaman. For early cata, all world firsts had a shaman. Because they were good? No, they were always dead last, but had mana tide so they could feed actual good healers. This expansion is no different. Shaman are without question gimped compared to other healers, but they have spirit link. The reality is, without that one niche totem, there would be 0 healer shaman in every world first.

It's OK to tell it like it is, shaman are an underperforming healer with a couple abilities that make them must haves in certain content. Content that is not applicable to 99% of players or guilds. And it will be exactly the same this expansion likely as the other previous 4. They will continually get buffed as the expansion rolls until they get to a point where they are tops.

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Healer logs don't really matter as much as dps logs.... overall output is not what defines a good healer, its not how much u heal but who and when u heal that counts. Shaman have good raid heals plus lots of utility.... SLT which u mentioned but also other totems like stun or shield totems, a ranged interrupt, offensive dispel, %HP buffs and more. While it may be true that we have had certain tools liek MTT or Lust that would guarantee us a raid spot in the past... these days everyone brings something unique to raids and while SLT is pretty good (esp stacked with Darkness) it isn't the only reason we are brought. Its been repeated before but our mastery makes us useful for progression and just useful in general. Cloudburst totem is also a great way to counter predictable damage with some burst heals.

Which is another topic that I wonder how people can be so blind. At the start of every xpack there are no shortage of people blathering on about how shaman are fine, l2h, world firsts use them, etc. They why do they continually get buffed? You can't have it both ways. If they are fine, then non stop buffs wouldn't be rolling in. Which is exactly what's going to happen here. Buffs will start rolling in as logs show shaman are far far behind.

Well, I don't like to say "shaman are fine" if we really aren't fine. It has happened many times in the past, where some obvious flaw is holding us back but people say to just wait or we are ok... then beta is over, the changes we needed didn't happen, and we suffer with a few months of being sub par till the eventual buffs come in. This has happened to the DPS specs many times... I remember our aoe being gimp for cata maybe? and despite suggestions we didn't get actual aoe like FN spreading or CL spam till few months in. Similar stuff with resto. But in Legion so far.... Enhance has been pretty solid overall since the start, Elemental had probs earlier but they have fixed those issues now, and Resto was also solid and good in both raids and M+. So yea... I do think they are fine now. I'm also not sure about the "non stop buffs" you mention.... I can't remember all the buffs we got, but I think it was just general stuff to make less popular talents more attractive. Our output is a bit low... so more buffs is great if we get em in future.... but I don't think its holding us back.




Edit: I forgot to add that the one area that I do think we could be better in is our DPS.... I think we may be the healer that does the lowest dps overall. I try to dps when I don't have to heal but it just doesn't do much and it isn't very fun to do either.... most of our spells are hard casted and it just feels slow. Would love if they could add a little depth to it, its not a high priority but still. Few ideas:

-Bring back a dps fire totem, maybe Fire Elem or liquid magma totem (or both!)... something set and forget so we can continue to heal.
-A mechanic where our heals stack a buff so when we do eventually cast a damage spell it hits for harder. Or the other way around, if we cast a few lb's it stacks a buff for our next heal so we get some synergy between the two spell types.
-Maybe give us Earth or Frost shock back for a stronger direct damage shock. This could benefit from the previous stacking buff mechanic also to do some decent damage after a period of heals.


Again... it really isn't a big priority but atleast for me I am happy with resto playstyle in general, healing output may need a buff, but it would be cool to have some more fun doing DPS esp in M+ stuff.

[Drefanator]

kind of bothers me that as a resto i become "worse" the better the raid gets at mechanics. Sure the HPS dont matter so much if you're winning, but i've been dealing with raid leaders that see that I did the least (not by a large margin but still there) HPS. This is mainly because we've learned to not stand in fire and my mastery becomes less efficient.

Pretty much Resto shamans should be the first healer to go dps as guilds start to farm content, or dps checks need to be met. We're still really good on hard fights with a lot of aoe damage.

[ItsTiddles]

kind of bothers me that as a resto i become "worse" the better the raid gets at mechanics. Sure the HPS dont matter so much if you're winning, but i've been dealing with raid leaders that see that I did the least (not by a large margin but still there) HPS. This is mainly because we've learned to not stand in fire and my mastery becomes less efficient.

Pretty much Resto shamans should be the first healer to go dps as guilds start to farm content, or dps checks need to be met. We're still really good on hard fights with a lot of aoe damage.

At the end of progression and for farm, going crit solves a lot of this problem. I always drop some mastery for more haste and crit at the end of a raid and then pick up more mastery when new progression rolls around.

[Axelond]

After clearing 2/3rd of nighthold mythic resto shaman is in a pretty weird place in terms of when you want to bring a resto shaman. All healers are overall pretty balanced output. If you all care about is raw healing numbers you can fill your raid of any possible combination of healers.

Right now I think on any 4+ healer fight you have 2 mandatory slots filled by one Holy Pala and one Resto druid. Resto shaman is not a "always bring one" spec that everyone wants to be. We need to compete for those remaining slots. It's really between Disc priest, another Rdruid, MW monk and Resto shaman for those 2 or 3 last spots. If your raid is cheesing disc priests (spam them with innervates and wisdom) they also have a almost guaranteed spot. For just consistent healing Rdruid or Mistweaver is way better than shaman. MW have really strong revival and with 2 min cd on tranq druids allow you to fit more big healing cds on crucial mechanics.

That means that the default comp does not really need or want a resto shaman. However Resto shaman fits the role of adjusting to the fight. With a huge toolkit to deal with almost any scary mechanic. There are a lot of fights where you need a resto shaman or you can't kill the boss with the standard strategy. On those fights you don't really care if the shaman is doing 2/3rd of the others healer hps, All they need to do is use a ability at a certain moment.


In Nighthold Resto shaman cheese strats is off the charts. Nobody has seen how the last 2 bosses play out but so far this is what we bring to each mythic fight.

Ancestral Protection Totem:
Tichondrius - required for rogue soak strat.
High Botanist Tel'arn - 1 extra battle res when sacrificing Call of the night in last phase
Star Augur Etraeus - Without the 10% extra health you might get one shot by witness the void.

Spirit link
Spellblade aluriel - For Arcane orbs placements.
Star Augur Etraeus - Witness the void

If the fight has no moments where spirit link can save the raid or cheese strat around ankh totem you pretty need to rely on the strength of the spec vs other healers

-Low movement

-Underhealing 2-3 healing we really shine. If it's a 5 heal fight and you are going 4 healers you really want a resto shaman in. In farm though you need to solo heal or 2 heal fights for resto to be amazing.

-High consistent damage Raid damage that comes over time instead of just 1 big hit.

- Longer bursts of healing, Maybe a last phase that last around 1 minute with intensive damage. 4 different cooldowns that can be chained and able to burn thru all your mana in under 2 min if needed.



So that's basically if a fight checks off a lot of those boxes Shaman is the best healer in the game and unbeatable. If you run into a more standard fight we are weak compared to the other healers.

So all of this kinda leaves us being a spec every mythic guild wants one of but only in if it fits the fight. It's not the best of states, especially for less skilled groups that doesn't utilize our toolkit properly or Groups that likes to play it safe with healers and add a extra healers for safety. Although I think this is still better than mistweavers/disc/holy, They got nothing but their healing really going for them. If they can't compete with healing that got nothing that makes them worth bringing. Your healing roster doesn't "need" any of them. Just fill the healing slots with any 1 or 2 of those classes and there wont be that huge a difference.