Sidwinders buff

[Deleted]

Can i ask what now do we go back to Sidwinders or we stay for Arcane and multi or we do mix for single target take arcane and for mytic + and raid booses with adds take sidewinders ....srry for eng

[Deleted]

damage was never the problem with sw.

35 focus is the problem.

[Deleted]

damage was never the problem with sw.

35 focus is the problem.

now is 40 focus i think

[Angel of Justice]

Its 35 baseline,40 with artifact trait

[Deleted]

then sidewinders and with buff forget

[Turtel]

Sidewinders didn't get any weaker with 7.1.5. There was a nerf to focus generated, but Marked Shot got cheaper to cast and Aimed Shot got more powerful. The reason Sidewinders lost it's position as the always-superior talent was because Trick Shot was significantly buffed with 7.1.5, so much so that it overtook Sidewinders for both single target and AoE (assuming Multishot can hit most targets). This week's tuning is probably a ~2% buff to both Sidewinders and Trick Shot builds, so the relative ranking of each talent shouldn't really change.

The only bosses I see Sidewinders beating Trick Shot on is Dragons/Ilgynoth/Helya, for everything else (including all Nighthold bosses), the cleave range of Multishot is sufficient to get the majority of adds that spawn, making Trick Shot superior.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Turtel;44309456]Sidewinders didn't get any weaker with 7.1.5. There was a nerf to focus generated, but Marked Shot got cheaper to cast and Aimed Shot got more powerful. The reason Sidewinders lost it's position as the always

Ty Turtel

[shade3891]

What would be the rotation if you use sidewinder? I find myself lost having a cd on my generator. :S it might be just me.

[Deleted]

Personally i do not like SW because vulnerabilitty provided by them now is pointless...
They should revert focus and remove Vulnerability debuff (with increased PPM and unaffected FS we do not need this buff from SW)

[Magnagarde]

The problem isn't the damage of SW, but the focus generation.

I used SW in certain encounters in NH without this buff too, so this increase in damage will just make it a bit better, but regardless; MM NH full clears require a lot of talent changing no matter what. That being said, if you want to dish out good DPS, there is no "liking of pace" the way they described the SW damage increase.

[Ravenzedd]

Everybody seems to think it's the focus regeneration that's the main issue with sidewinders (It's an issue, but not the most important one).

The main issue is the new RPPM of marking targets. It works out that you get more procs than you can actually use, diminishing the value of sidewinders drastically.

If they just lowered the cooldown on sidewinders to better match up with marking targets RPPM, it would be a far better talent.

[Finbezz]

Everybody seems to think it's the focus regeneration that's the main issue with sidewinders (It's an issue, but not the most important one).

The main issue is the new RPPM of marking targets. It works out that you get more procs than you can actually use, diminishing the value of sidewinders drastically.

If they just lowered the cooldown on sidewinders to better match up with marking targets RPPM, it would be a far better talent.

This. Sidewinders generates far more focus than arcane/multi-shot. Even at 35 per.

[Deleted]

Quick question. Am i right in thinking that SW resets the timer on Vulnerable? If so, what is the point of using it on ST? Just means that you will miss the last 2 sec of optimal damage. If i'm wrong feel free to point me in the right direction

[Penguintamer]

Think about why we stopped using Sidewinders in 7.1.5 for a second. What did they change about it? The focus is grants and our overall focus pool, on top of nerfing Marked Shot's damage which makes its spread cleave less powerful. Why would a small damage buff to Sidewinders revert any of that? That ability was never about the damage it did itself.

[Youn]

It's pretty hard right now to spend all the focus we have available to us with sidewinders. It's effectively 40 focus every 10 seconds. The buff to arcane shot assumes you are going to fire 4 arcane shots (with some critting) in that same 10 seconds?

Example:
Sidewinders: 5 minute fight = 300 seconds = 32 sidewinders for 1280 focus + 3600 focus passive (at 20% haste).
Arcane Shot: 5 minute fight = 300 seconds = 128 arcane shots for 1024 + (125 from crits) + 3600 focus passive (at 20% haste).

So, about 130 less focus over the course of a 5 minute fight. This would equal out to about the same number of Windbursts, Aimed Shots and Marked Shots.

So, does 32 Sidewinders (333% of AP) = 128 Arcane Shots (200% of weapon damage) in damage?

[cLax0n]

Sidewinders didn't get any weaker with 7.1.5. There was a nerf to focus generated, but Marked Shot got cheaper to cast and Aimed Shot got more powerful. The reason Sidewinders lost it's position as the always-superior talent was because Trick Shot was significantly buffed with 7.1.5, so much so that it overtook Sidewinders for both single target and AoE (assuming Multishot can hit most targets). This week's tuning is probably a ~2% buff to both Sidewinders and Trick Shot builds, so the relative ranking of each talent shouldn't really change.

The only bosses I see Sidewinders beating Trick Shot on is Dragons/Ilgynoth/Helya, for everything else (including all Nighthold bosses), the cleave range of Multishot is sufficient to get the majority of adds that spawn, making Trick Shot superior.

It was because Sidewinders always applied Vulnerable. That was the ONLY reason it was better than the other talents. Now that the PPM of Marking Shots was increased, you don't need Sidewinders to have near 100% uptime (for Aimed Shot) of Vulnerable. Patient Sniper being reworked means that you don't want to always overwrite Vulnerable, something that you cannot control with Sidewinders. Arcane Shot gives far less focus but much more control over your rotation which means you are able to capitalize on every Marking Shot proc. Sidewinders limits on how many marking shot procs you can benefit from. Trick Shot has far superior sustained aoe, and you can multi-shot as much as you want. On fights with high amount of adds, multi-shot generates as much or more focus than Sidewinders, and it's spammable. If you have Trueshot up, you can do way more burst AOE than Sidewinders. True Aim also is much easier to keep up AND build up on the target because you can spam Arcane Shot. True Aim coupled with Trick Shot also with Aimed Shot being buffed are also added reasons as to why Sidewinders is inferior.

Also on encounters such as Ilgynoth/Helya/Dragons you're better off taking Sentinel.

[Turtel]

Think about why we stopped using Sidewinders in 7.1.5 for a second. What did they change about it? The focus is grants and our overall focus pool, on top of nerfing Marked Shot's damage which makes its spread cleave less powerful. Why would a small damage buff to Sidewinders revert any of that? That ability was never about the damage it did itself.

People stopped using Sidewinders because Trick Shot started doing more damage than it. If they buffed the damage done by Sidewinders even more, to the point that it beat Trick Shot in damage, then everyone would be using Sidewinders again. It doesn't matter what they change about Sidewinders, whether it be through further increased damage, increased focused regen, reduced cooldown, or some new mechanic.

It was because Sidewinders always applied Vulnerable. That was the ONLY reason it was better than the other talents. Now that the PPM of Marking Shots was increased, you don't need Sidewinders to have near 100% uptime (for Aimed Shot) of Vulnerable. Patient Sniper being reworked means that you don't want to always overwrite Vulnerable, something that you cannot control with Sidewinders. Arcane Shot gives far less focus but much more control over your rotation which means you are able to capitalize on every Marking Shot proc. Sidewinders limits on how many marking shot procs you can benefit from. Trick Shot has far superior sustained aoe, and you can multi-shot as much as you want. On fights with high amount of adds, multi-shot generates as much or more focus than Sidewinders, and it's spammable. If you have Trueshot up, you can do way more burst AOE than Sidewinders. True Aim also is much easier to keep up AND build up on the target because you can spam Arcane Shot. True Aim coupled with Trick Shot also with Aimed Shot being buffed are also added reasons as to why Sidewinders is inferior.

Also on encounters such as Ilgynoth/Helya/Dragons you're better off taking Sentinel.

I first just wanted to clarify that I never said that Sidewinders was better than Trick Shot (in fact I pretty much said the opposite).

Changing Patient Sniper didn't nerf Sidewinders nearly as much as people are claiming. If you cast Sidewinders>Aimed>Aimed you actually pretty much automatically get the best parts of the Patient Sniper Vulnerable debuff. Sidewinders incurs a 1.5 second GCD, Aimed Shot has a 2 second cast time. This means the first Aimed Shot will hit at 3.5 seconds, and the second Aimed Shot hits at 5.5 seconds. Unlike with Trick Shot, you don't have to constantly be spamming Arcane, so you don't lose any DPS by delaying the Aimed Shots slightly either (the second Aimed Shot will probably be delayed automatically due to usually not having enough focus).

Marked Shot is also not that much better than Aimed Shot in damage per focus, so it isn't much of a DPS increase to be able to use more Marking Targets procs, at least on single target. In fact if you're using Trick Shot/True Aim, it's a DPS loss to waste your focus on Marked Shot rather than spending it on Aimed Shot (only very slightly though, to the point that it doesn't matter too much). Sidewinders does lose out significantly on AoE though, I definitely don't disagree there, but I think that's kind of the point of the Sidewinders niche; it hits more targets (sometimes), but does less damage per target.

Sentinel is on a different talent row to Sidewinders/Trick Shot so you can take both Sidewinders/Sentinel, although I don't really want to get into the nitty gritty of whether it's better to run Sentinel/Trick Shot or Sentinel/Sidewinders, it really does depend on the situation. My inclination for those three bosses was just informed by the fact that prior to the release of Nighthold (the first week of 7.1.5), the average parse on heroic Helya for MM hunters using Sidewinders was around 471k, while the average parse of those using Trick Shot was around 380k (there was an even split of people using Sidewinders/Trick Shot, with thousands of parses each). A similar situation was the case for Dragons/Ilgynoth, where those using Sidewinders outperformed those using Trick Shot on average. I would provide links to the specific pages, but ToV seems to have bugged out on Warcraft Logs and is perhaps removing all 7.1.5 parses, since no one is recorded as having used Trick Shot.

[cLax0n]

People stopped using Sidewinders because Trick Shot started doing more damage than it. If they buffed the damage done by Sidewinders even more, to the point that it beat Trick Shot in damage, then everyone would be using Sidewinders again. It doesn't matter what they change about Sidewinders, whether it be through further increased damage, increased focused regen, reduced cooldown, or some new mechanic.



I first just wanted to clarify that I never said that Sidewinders was better than Trick Shot (in fact I pretty much said the opposite).

Changing Patient Sniper didn't nerf Sidewinders nearly as much as people are claiming. If you cast Sidewinders>Aimed>Aimed you actually pretty much automatically get the best parts of the Patient Sniper Vulnerable debuff. Sidewinders incurs a 1.5 second GCD, Aimed Shot has a 2 second cast time. This means the first Aimed Shot will hit at 3.5 seconds, and the second Aimed Shot hits at 5.5 seconds. Unlike with Trick Shot, you don't have to constantly be spamming Arcane, so you don't lose any DPS by delaying the Aimed Shots slightly either (the second Aimed Shot will probably be delayed automatically due to usually not having enough focus).

Marked Shot is also not that much better than Aimed Shot in damage per focus, so it isn't much of a DPS increase to be able to use more Marking Targets procs, at least on single target. In fact if you're using Trick Shot/True Aim, it's a DPS loss to waste your focus on Marked Shot rather than spending it on Aimed Shot (only very slightly though, to the point that it doesn't matter too much). Sidewinders does lose out significantly on AoE though, I definitely don't disagree there, but I think that's kind of the point of the Sidewinders niche; it hits more targets (sometimes), but does less damage per target.

Sentinel is on a different talent row to Sidewinders/Trick Shot so you can take both Sidewinders/Sentinel, although I don't really want to get into the nitty gritty of whether it's better to run Sentinel/Trick Shot or Sentinel/Sidewinders, it really does depend on the situation. My inclination for those three bosses was just informed by the fact that prior to the release of Nighthold (the first week of 7.1.5), the average parse on heroic Helya for MM hunters using Sidewinders was around 471k, while the average parse of those using Trick Shot was around 380k (there was an even split of people using Sidewinders/Trick Shot, with thousands of parses each). A similar situation was the case for Dragons/Ilgynoth, where those using Sidewinders outperformed those using Trick Shot on average. I would provide links to the specific pages, but ToV seems to have bugged out on Warcraft Logs and is perhaps removing all 7.1.5 parses, since no one is recorded as having used Trick Shot.

You're right about the Sentinel.

Although Marked Shot does less damage than Aimed Shot, Marked Shot is instant, does AOE damage and applies Vulnerable. Therefore technically, Marked Shot does more damage than an Aimed Shot without Vulnerable. Also, because the proc rate was drastically increased, you have a lot more mobile damage because you can spam Arcane Shot > Marked Shot while you're moving.