Hawaii Bill to Classify Homelessness as Medical Condition

[Runenwächter]

What's wrong with trying to reduce/eliminate homelessness? Trumpets and their far right deplorables have no better alternatives, so let good people try and help others.

Thats a stupid question because it is unrelated to the problem posed. It merely serves to distract. The intent is not the problem, the execution is. Any fool can mean well.

Example: I can mean to feed the hungry fish. Sadly the processed food I had on hand was not suitable fish food, which I didnt consider. Now the fish are dead. RIP fishies.

What are the proverbs? "Hell is full of good intentions, heaven is full of good work?" "The road to hell is paved with good intentions?"
These proverbs are are around for a reason. The world has no shortage of well meaning fools.

Acting purely on the basis of intent with no regards to possible or even likely consequences is stupid and unethical.

[Deleted]

homeless people are professional scammers who live off of the generosity of others.

Here in manchester(uk) homeless people are 99.99% drunkards and drug addicts and since all the idiots are so generous, every homeless person in the entire UK flocks to this hellhole of a city and now we have a homeless epidemic where the streets smell of marijuana and alcohol and we have "homeless" people wearing a 2 piece suit asking you for change.

[Molis]

I wouldn't mind stuff like this at all.

Though in my ideal situation we would cut off funding overseas for this stuff (and yes that includes refugees) and re-focus every last penny of that into our own citizens.

I always wondered why the US has to be the one to send aid to every backward country in the world, and accept every refugee that ends up being a drain on society.

Shouldn't we take care of our own first? While this program seems a little far fetched. I wouldnt mind some of our foreign aid actually being put to good use within our borders.

[PosPosPos]

Thats a stupid question because it is unrelated to the problem posed. It merely serves to distract. The intent is not the problem, the execution is. Any fool can mean well.

Example: I can mean to feed the hungry fish. Sadly the processed food I had on hand was not suitable fish food, which I didnt consider. Now the fish are dead. RIP fishies.

What are the proverbs? "Hell is full of good intentions, heaven is full of good work?" "The road to hell is paved with good intentions?"
These proverbs are are around for a reason. The world has no shortage of well meaning fools.

Acting purely on the basis of intent with no regards to possible or even likely consequences is stupid and unethical.

Bad comparison, because this is just handing out money/housing for people who are homeless under a banner that's not PC, nobody other than Trumpets care so stop being PC like the SJWs thanks.

A bad solution would be opening up public places like libraries to shelter the homeless, this isn't.

[TITAN308]

Bad comparison, because this is just handing out money/housing for people who are homeless under a banner that's not PC, nobody other than Trumpets care so stop being PC like the SJWs thanks.

A bad solution would be opening up public places like libraries to shelter the homeless, this isn't.

"buzzword buzzword I'm going to conveniently ignore the fact that democrat cities have taken no initiative to solve this same problem using their own coffers buzzword somethingsomething more buzzwords"

You refusal to acknowledge this isn't a party related problem is pretty disgusting.

[lmaotsetung]

For anyone to simply say homelessness is just laziness has no clue about Mental Health. Until you have lived with someone who has mental issues, you will never ever understand the far reaching impact it has. The same goes for addiction. I work in the hospitality biz...I know homelessness, I see it every day. I also live with someone who has serious mental illness. I am not saying every homeless person suffers from some form of mental illness but I will say a lot of them does.

[announced]

there already is a cure for homelessness, its called fentanyl. The pills work great here in Canada and usually it solves the homeless problem.


military members and vets should be taken care of though for real, like getting special treatment.

[The Stormbringer]

there already is a cure for homelessness, its called fentanyl. The pills work great here in Canada and usually it solves the homeless problem.


military members and vets should be taken care of though for real, like getting special treatment.

Yeah, fuck those other homeless people right? Only veterans get our attention, pity, and tax dollars.

[shadowmouse]

Just a point for consideration -- there is research that has begun to show a connection between traumatic brain injury and homelessness. http://www.brainline.org/content/201...s_pageall.html

Homelessness is comorbid with all of the conditions mentioned: incarceration, psychiatric symptomatology, substance abuse and school failure or placement in special education, yet no protocol is in place to routinely screen those experiencing homelessness for traumatic brain injury or its neuropsychological sequelae.

COST OF HOMELESSNESS

At present, the impact of traumatic brain injury and cognitive dysfunction on the cost of homelessness cannot be calculated, since the research that would bring those costs to light has yet to be undertaken. Much is known, however, about the cost of homelessness in general. In many cities, homeless persons live in street, shelter, hospital, detox and jail in a cyclical fashion at great cost to themselves and society. In terms of medical care, homeless persons tend to use the most expensive interventions: Emergency settings, psychiatric units and detoxification facilities. On average, studies report that homeless persons spend four more days in hospital each year than nonhomeless people.31 To extrapolate, at current cost estimates it is possible that the 33,500 persons who are presently homeless every night in New York City generate $335 million more in hospital fees annually than non-homeless persons do.

Studies reveal that homeless persons also spend a disproportionate amount of time in jail and prison. In 2005, a year in prison cost an average of $23,876.32 Additionally, homeless shelters cost far more on average than does permanent housing: About $1,250 per month to shelter single persons and $2,000 to $2,500 per month for families in homeless shelters. For comparison, in New York City, permanent, supportive housing for eligible formerly homeless persons costs $215 per month. A recent study of long-term homelessness found that: “The 150,000 chronically homeless people in the United States cost $10.95 billion per year in public funds. If these individuals were all permanently housed, the expense would be expected to fall to $7.88 billion.” The study estimated that approximately 90% of these costs are comprised of medical care for this vulnerable population. 33

One of the causes of frequent use of high-cost medical services by homeless persons may be ease of access. In New York City, for example, hospital emergency departments cannot refuse uninsured persons medical care whereas in an outpatient setting, those who cannot pay will not be seen. Identification of cognitive dysfunction in homeless persons can enhance their ability to obtain SSI/SSD disability entitlements, which guarantees stable health insurance in the form of Medicaid and/or Medicare and may serve to curtail inappropriate emergency room use and avoidable hospitalizations.34

So, the language of having doctors write a prescription for housing made me cringe, but there is a case for taking homelessness as something with an underlying medical cause that should be screened for and addressed.

[Independent voter]

Homeless like Hawaii, it's a left wing place and you can sleep on the beach and not freeze to death. Maybe bathe in the ocean if that's your thing.

So there are tons of homeless in Hawaii, the place smells like pee and poop.

[ParanoiD84]

Quite a few here lives o the street of own will, one is there because hes so damn lazy that hes rich parents kicked him out and now he spends all days sleeping in the trainstation with the alcoholics.

Im sure there is plenty with mental health issues to.

[Runenwächter]

Bad comparison, because this is just handing out money/housing for people who are homeless under a banner that's not PC, nobody other than Trumpets care so stop being PC like the SJWs thanks.

A bad solution would be opening up public places like libraries to shelter the homeless, this isn't.

Stop being so damn obtuse. The comparison with the fish is not meant to be comparing a situation similar or equal to the financing of homless people by redefining medial terms, it served to explain the basic underlying problem here: the difference in actions with good intent and a good deed.

The proverbs alone should help the slowest of thinker along.
It doesnt matter what you think about who cares or does not care. That is not a factual basis and an assumption on your part in the first place. This isnt about PC culture, this isnt about Trump and I dont know why you keep swinging this around my face like some delicious bait.

Unless you have some agenda here.

- - - Updated - - -

Just a point for consideration -- there is research that has begun to show a connection between traumatic brain injury and homelessness. http://www.brainline.org/content/201...s_pageall.html



So, the language of having doctors write a prescription for housing made me cringe, but there is a case for taking homelessness as something with an underlying medical cause that should be screened for and addressed.

Yes. But it is very hard to help mentaly ill people without temporarily restricting or otherwise infringing on their rights.
If you ask for the consent in every issue and if you rely on their free will to make the right decisions you are shit out of luck when we are talking about the serious cases. And it is those we are talking about, those are the ones that end up homeless.

In my opinion this isnt really a matter of money if the money originally designated for other purposes can be used here, it seems to be there. The US could most likely afford to offer better medical care to the homeless and mentally ill.

But it is VERY VERY hard to create a medial care system, that is basically without gaps for the weakest of or societies to fall through and that at the same time can not be wielded against people as a weapon. Thats the issue in medicine and although the proverb refers to substances it applies here as well. “Everything is poisonous, nothing is poisonous, it is all a matter of dose.”

Possible example: Man looses home. Man is now homeless. Man attempts to sue. Counterclaim questions mans sanity of the mind, citing homelessness as proof of mental illness. Court follows the argument of the defendant. This is likely because while there is no science behind the new definition, courts are not institutions to evaluate scientific basis. They rely on the objectivity of science and scientists to serve them with accurate definitions.

Cant beginn to describe how bad I think the idea is.

[shadowmouse]

But it is very hard to help mentaly ill people without temporarily restricting or otherwise infringing on their rights.
If you ask for the consent in every issue and if you rely on their free will to make the right decisions you are shit out of luck when we are talking about the serious cases. And it is those we are talking about, those are the ones that end up homeless.

The catch is that those same serious cases are the ones who frequently end up (in the US) rotated through the criminal justice system. Note the language that I placed in bold face. For convenience I'll repeat it:

Homelessness is comorbid with all of the conditions mentioned: incarceration, psychiatric symptomatology, substance abuse and school failure or placement in special education, yet no protocol is in place to routinely screen those experiencing homelessness for traumatic brain injury or its neuropsychological sequelae.

Problems already exist. They are already costing no small amount of money, as I'll go over in a minute. What is missing is screening for underlying TBI, and that leads to approaches that see homelessness as a failure of one's work ethic, substance abuse is seen as a lack of will power, and so on. There is an underlying assumption that homeless are failures, where the possibility is their failure stems not just from a bad childhood but literally from brain injury. Their freedom and their options are already being limited, what they aren't getting is proper treatment.

Within the limited language that I quoted from the study:

In terms of medical care, homeless persons tend to use the most expensive interventions: Emergency settings, psychiatric units and detoxification facilities. On average, studies report that homeless persons spend four more days in hospital each year than nonhomeless people.31 To extrapolate, at current cost estimates it is possible that the 33,500 persons who are presently homeless every night in New York City generate $335 million more in hospital fees annually than non-homeless persons do.

Studies reveal that homeless persons also spend a disproportionate amount of time in jail and prison. In 2005, a year in prison cost an average of $23,876.32 Additionally, homeless shelters cost far more on average than does permanent housing: About $1,250 per month to shelter single persons and $2,000 to $2,500 per month for families in homeless shelters. For comparison, in New York City, permanent, supportive housing for eligible formerly homeless persons costs $215 per month. A recent study of long-term homelessness found that: “The 150,000 chronically homeless people in the United States cost $10.95 billion per year in public funds. If these individuals were all permanently housed, the expense would be expected to fall to $7.88 billion.” The study estimated that approximately 90% of these costs are comprised of medical care for this vulnerable population.

Homelessness is already costing us money, and probably more money than screening and assistance would. According to the language in bold, about 3 billion dollars per year for 150,000 people, but even more if we look beyond the chronically homeless. Screening could (and I would argue should) be part of their evaluation for any of those other conditions -- for example on arrest, on treatment for drug abuse or mental disorder, even at certain points as a child is being steered into special education. It isn't a matter of expecting them to make choices, it is a matter of processing them as they already go through the system.

Your example also gives the American legal system too little credit. Courts weigh the evidence presented, they are triers of fact. It is up to counsel on both sides to present their best case and that includes expert testimony. As it stands, a homeless person can already be painted in negative terms by bringing up their arrests, their credit history and a host of other factors. Opposing counsel is expected to go in prepared to respond to those points. The same would happen in your example.

Giving greater attention to TBI would offer potential benefits as shown at the end of the bit I quoted:

Identification of cognitive dysfunction in homeless persons can enhance their ability to obtain SSI/SSD disability entitlements, which guarantees stable health insurance in the form of Medicaid and/or Medicare and may serve to curtail inappropriate emergency room use and avoidable hospitalizations.

More than 3 billion in savings, reduced strain on things like emergency rooms, why wouldn't we want those things?

[Mad_Murdock]

Just a point for consideration -- there is research that has begun to show a connection between traumatic brain injury and homelessness. http://www.brainline.org/content/201...s_pageall.html

I guess if the end result is the same, it doesn't matter. Whether Homeless is a medical condition or being Homeless means you have some sort medical condition and the treatment is free rent, then I guess we shouldn't care what label we stick on it. I think it's dishonest and not very scientific to label homeless has a medical condition, sounds like they just want to work the system to get the rent paid for, which I don't like. Maybe it's cheaper to lump them all into that group versus bring in each Homeless person and determine what medical condition they actually have. Just write a check and send them on their way is the cheapest answer. I imagine the counter argument is, that they would rather help in other ways, but at least this way they get something.

[Runenwächter]

Still, I think you ask and argue the wrong question bungee². Please dont repeat this again and again when the desirability of better care for the homeless is not the issue. The question isnt even if it is affordable or economic. The problem I argue against lies solely and exclusively with the proposed means and method.

It is very hard to succeed in ones pursuits as a person who is always well intentioned, because the world is full of terrible people. This method is open to abuse and sets a dangerous precedent. I say it is a Djin that no matter the wishes should better stay in that bottle. Lets look for other possibilities to fund these programms.

[shadowmouse]

I think it's dishonest and not very scientific to label homeless has a medical condition, sounds like they just want to work the system to get the rent paid for, which I don't like

As I said in my first post:

So, the language of having doctors write a prescription for housing made me cringe, but there is a case for taking homelessness as something with an underlying medical cause that should be screened for and addressed.

The bill in OP is something of the right thing, done completely wrong. Doctors screening homeless for TBI as an underlying condition, then routing them to social services for assistance enrolling in SSI/SSD and housing support would be more what I would hope to see.

This method is open to abuse and sets a dangerous precedent.

Except, you've failed to actually prove either of those things. You also seem to have skipped over facts in a study in order to present your opinion, while missing the fact that I'm not in support of the original bill and was pointing out the cost of ignoring TBI. We are already spending money, and money in excess of what it would cost to address the problem. That money amounts to more than 3 billion dollars. Beyond that, the way medical treatment for homeless people is handled places unnecessary strain on our health care system by shunting them to emergency rooms, and they are also staying in hospitals more than non-homeless (4 days per year more). None of this has a thing to do with terrible people in the world.

[Mad_Murdock]

As I said in my first post:

The bill in OP is something of the right thing, done completely wrong. Doctors screening homeless for TBI as an underlying condition, then routing them to social services for assistance enrolling in SSI/SSD and housing support would be more what I would hope to see.

And I was mostly agreeing with you. My gripe is in "working the system". We complain when rich people work the system to avoid paying million\billions in taxes. Criminals work the system to avoid or get out of jail. As noted above, working the system with good intentions isn't really the best answer, unless you're OK with everyone working the system, which we have now with many pork barrel spending projects.

[Celista]

Homelessness is not a medical condition, its a condition born from laziness or poor life decisions.

Everyone in this country is a serious illness or accident away from homelessness, whether you have a job or insurance. Keep spouting this nonsense and I have a feeling that you'll find this out for yourself one day.

[Mistame]

Florida Man is running Hawaii?

[Aoyi]

I think this is a rather strange way to address the problem, but something needs to be done to help the homeless. I know assholes like to think people on the street deserve to be there because they're lazy, but there are many reasons a person could end up in that situation. There was a girl I knew years ago whose parents were pretty worthless. One day, her mother just put her out because she couldn't handle having a kid anymore. Her father was nowhere to be seen. She ended up homeless overnight because of someone else's failures. We took her in for about 5 months until she was able to save up enough money to get an apartment. Had we not done that, who knows what could have happened to her.

As @Celista pointed out, anyone could become homeless. Many people face it, even briefly in their lives for many reasons. I don't think that Hawaii's approach may be the best way to handle the problem, but who knows? It sounds dumb, but if we look back in a couple years and it seems to have worked, great. If it fails, then we know they made a mistake that the other 49 states can learn from. Either way, homelessness is a real problem that needs to be addressed somehow.