New Mode - Endless Dungeon

[Jujudrood]

TL;DR - New Mode that randomly selects Dungeons/Bosses and scales similar to M+ to mix up the flow of "dungeoning" and give an "endless" feel to how far you can go in a single run that's not solely based on beating a timer.

So, with the advent of M+ and the seemingly split feelings on it, where some love it, some hate it, and others just don't care, I was thinking what other modes could be added to the current dungeon system to mix it up a bit and maybe get a little more life out of it.
This idea is probably not entirely new as the game has been around a while, so I'm sure others have had the same idea, but let's flesh it out a bit anyway: Endless Dungeon.
This feature would use existing assets, so it wouldn't be an entirely new dev effort, but rather just events and portals and such to make it work.

Here goes:
Endless Dungeon would work similar to M+ in difficulty scaling (like Rank 3 Endless is the same as M+3 in terms of damage/health/etc) and will also bring with it affixes the same as M+.
The biggest difference will be that Endless Dungeon will be set up to randomly select a dungeon and a boss as part of a "scenario" for each step, and you would be able to continuously (dare I say, endlessly?) run by way of Ranking up, which will be tied to Scenario Goals, broken down as: Gold Rating (strict time limit to kill boss and maybe even a trash counter, increases next Scenario Rank by +3), Silver Rating (more lenient, but still hard target time limit, increases next Scenario Rank by +2), and Bronze Rating (simply just kill boss, increases next Scenario Rank by +1).

Each scenario begins in a random dungeon and at a random starting point, where each starting point could be the Entrance, the First Boss' room/area, etc. If it chooses part way through a dungeon, the dungeon will be treated as if all trash and the boss in whose room you spawn is already downed, so the only way is forward (or in the event of a non-linear like Eye or Vault, towards the target boss).
When each scenario begins, you have a 10 sec timer then everything starts (just like M+) with a goal of killing the target boss of the scenario.
Once the boss dies, the timer (and possible trash requirement) is checked for Gold/Silver/Bronze for the Rank increase and a portal is spawned in the room/area.
Taking the portal will port you to the next randomly chosen dungeon/starting point and you continue from there.

Each scenario will have an option to Continue (use the Portal, everyone confirms) or to End (a vote goes out to end, everyone confirms).
If the Group chooses to continue, they all get ported to the next scenario, but if they choose end, the portal disappears and a loot chest appears in the room with loot based on the highest Rank they cleared, with possible bonus loot for number of Gold and Silver ratings achieved (think like getting 3 chest timer in M+, but this would be a single chest with possible multiple items).

There will also be restrictions in the Endless Dungeon, such as only allowed to use Hero/BL once per scenario (to prevent extremely long waits at high Ranks), and the scenario auto-ends on a wipe, so you would still want to take care on trash and follow mechanics at high levels.
Other restrictions/rules would probably need implemented as well to keep it balanced, such as not allowing the same boss to be chosen within maybe 5 scenarios or so, but allow the same dungeon to be chosen as long as the target is a new boss (getting the same boss twice in a row would be kinda lame).

Here's a process flow for how it would work:
- Group enters Endless Dungeon at Rank 2 and is ported to DHT in the room with the druid boss
- Group clears trash, proceeds to target boss (tree guy)
- Group downs tree guy with a Silver Rating, receiving Rank 2+2=4
- Group chooses to Continue, ported to Vault entrance and tasked with killing first boss
- Group clears trash and kills Boss with Gold Rating, receiving Rank 4+3=7 and first affix
- Group chooses to continue, ported to Nelth on third boss (snake thing) and tasked with killing last boss
- Group downs last boss with Bronze Rating, receiving Rank 7+1=8
- Group chooses to End, loot chest appears with M+8 equivalent loot and small chance for bonus loot for 1 Gold and 1 Silver included in run

Of course new dev would be needed to make the portals and chest spawn points, as well as the ability to generate the dungeon with trash and bosses down (should you end up somewhere in the middle) as well as a variety of other things to make this work, but the existing dungeons, bosses, affixes, loot options, all these assets already exist and just need minor manipulation otherwise.

I think a mode like this could add some variety to the stagnant dungeons, mix up bosses (some are harder than others at high levels and/or with certain affixes) and also give the folks who don't particularly care for the "gogogo" mentality of the M+ runs an alternative, while the "gogogo" crowd may find value in this as they probably have run M+MoS and M+DHT about 800 times a piece now and are probably pretty tired of it, so maybe they get a Maw boss, then go to HoV or BRH and get a mix of things to do, plus pushing Gold would mean you need to be a bit quicker on your feet due to the possible scenery change and adjusting your strat based on where you end up and which boss you are going after.

If a group were to choose, they could simply take their time, smell the roses, and as long as the boss dies in the end, they get a Bronze rating and can continue.
It would be endless in that you could technically continue to go to the next scenario, with gear/skill being the wall that would stop you due to damage output and other such things.
Of course, finer detail would need worked out to make it more polished, but I think this would add value to the dungeon system and be a decent alternative for those who wish to gear through dungeons but don't want to be forced into the race for timers as well as allowing more specs the ability to do higher Rank things without being shunned due to poor AOE or what have you.

Anyway, I'd like to get the community opinion on something like this and, if it seems favorable amongst the MMO-C crowd, maybe even submit something in hopes that maybe someone of import reads it. Who knows, right?
I'm sure I'll think of other things to add/update, but feel free to throw in other ideas.

[Deleted]

TLDR pls or make the text eye friendly.

[Jujudrood]

TLDR pls or make the text eye friendly.

I'll iterate over it (at work right now, so kinda doing multiple things at once lol).

[shinji204]

Good idea!

[Xerthos]

I like the idea. Would you keep the time penalty when someone dies but it doesn't result in a wipe? What about someone who loads in slower than the rest of the group?

[Temp name]

So all the "bad" from M+ (Spamming, forced to for good loot), with even more randomness in where you go and what loot you get?

Nope, I'll stick with M+ where I can keep doing the dungeon I want loot from over and over

[Jujudrood]

I like the idea. Would you keep the time penalty when someone dies but it doesn't result in a wipe? What about someone who loads in slower than the rest of the group?

The 5 sec penalty for a single death would be okay to keep.
There should be a kickoff of sorts, like a Ready Check style so everyone is zoned in prior to the countdown (would be crappy if someone lags and the timer starts anyway).

Would also need a currency/item type that controls access to them, similar to keystones, maybe one that recharges daily, so you can start a new run once per day and the Rank at which you start can be determined by how far you've gone in the week (like, if you clear +8, you can start at +5 the next day as an example), to keep from being so blatantly spammable without recourse (at least with M+ you have to find someone with a MoS stone, for example, can't just stroll in at any time).

- - - Updated - - -

So all the "bad" from M+ (Spamming, forced to for good loot), with even more randomness in where you go and what loot you get?

Nope, I'll stick with M+ where I can keep doing the dungeon I want loot from over and over

See, the "bad" in M+ is perceived differently by different people.
Some people see the "bad" as having a time and being unforgiving to certain specs who are passed over in favor for those monks/dhs who have better aoe than, say, a feral.
Some also see it as boring in that it's the same small set of dungeons over and over with no variety aside from the affixes, which may add a couple adds to a pack or make some void zones on the ground, whereas this concept (which is far from perfect, admittedly) would at least mix it up and give it a level of randomness so it's not just the same ol' same ol'.

The spamming would need controlled in a similar fashion (item/currency to allow you in), and being forced to do it for good loot would be more of a future correction in that the loot itself shouldn't be able to outweight current raid items (that's a flaw in the legion design itself so far).
Sure, M+ allows you to pick the dungeon (given a keystone) and you can aim for that loot, but again, some instances (like VotW, which has FCW) have multiple bosses and you are not guaranteed an item by the end, but rather a chance at it.
You could very well get that boss in your Endless without the need to do the whole dungeon then just be done.
Pile on the Gold/Silver ranks and you could optionally do those to potentially get more loot, with each downed boss being on the table.
sure, it wouldn't be for everyone, but I could see a part of the playerbase preferring this over to the mind-melting grind that is "gogogo" into as many M+ as you can possibly take.

[Xerthos]

Would also need a currency/item type that controls access to them, similar to keystones, maybe one that recharges daily, so you can start a new run once per day and the Rank at which you start can be determined by how far you've gone in the week (like, if you clear +8, you can start at +5 the next day as an example), to keep from being so blatantly spammable without recourse (at least with M+ you have to find someone with a MoS stone, for example, can't just stroll in at any time).

I think it could be a good idea. I do see the loot being an issue though. If it is not rewarding enough then people will not want to do it. If it is too rewarding then people will feel it is mandatory. This is more a problem with warforging I think though.

[Jujudrood]

I think it could be a good idea. I do see the loot being an issue though. If it is not rewarding enough then people will not want to do it. If it is too rewarding then people will feel it is mandatory. This is more a problem with warforging I think though.

True enough.
That's an issue with the xpac though, not just how dungeons or M+ works.
The loot from Endless would be on par with M+, with the differences being 1) no time limit requirement (just takes longer to get to higher ranks) and 2) the dungeon sets are chosen at random, so you do not control which bosses you face. I think these would be a decent trade-off for those who don't want to race through M+ (and potentially fail the timer, even though they don't wipe).
The M+ crowd would still do that because it would be more focused (single dungeon, fixed bosses) and possibly even quicker if timers are their only goal, while others can spend an afternoon climbing through Endless. At the end, if the M+ group did a +12 and the Endless group killed a Rank 12 boss, they would have the same gear levels for eligible loot, but the Endless group would have a different combo table (due to bosses from different dungeons).

[Airwaves]

If it didn't have gear sure. If it does. God no. I already hate having to do mythic plus on top of raiding. I just want to raid a few nights a week and get bis. All this extra shit sucks. TF and mythic plus are terrible for the game in the long run. People might be fine now but after you have done a few 1000 and you are still require to because they keep upping the item level people are gonna leave. Adding ANOTHER thing to that is just gonna make people burn out faster. There is a fine line between to much content and to little.

[Deleted]

So, its exactly like current M+, but instead of having to do the entire dungeon you only do one boss at a time + some trash.

TBH, this isn't really new or innovative. Lets say you get rid of keystones and have to start at Level 1 each time. Then it just becomes tedious and grindy to get to high levels. Running low keys isn't fun, I avoid them like the plague. But if you allow players to start at some higher rank, you pretty much have the same system as current M+ again, just with shorter dungeons.

your system is actually even more frustrating since you#d never know what comes next. And that means its stupid. Currently I can target the dungeon and avoid affix/dungeons combinations that aren't going to work. imagine how much people will like it when you select extremely punising bosses. You would get the same as in D3, where people fish for a good rift. But people would fish for lucky streaks in your endless dungeon to get high ranks. Its nut fun, its grindy and boring and tedious.

[Deleted]

Love it! make it happen

[Jujudrood]

If it didn't have gear sure. If it does. God no. I already hate having to do mythic plus on top of raiding. I just want to raid a few nights a week and get bis. All this extra shit sucks. TF and mythic plus are terrible for the game in the long run. People might be fine now but after you have done a few 1000 and you are still require to because they keep upping the item level people are gonna leave. Adding ANOTHER thing to that is just gonna make people burn out faster. There is a fine line between to much content and to little.

The problem with removing loot is that is pretty much the only carrot on a stick to keep people doing content.
I would love it if they could implement randomized tile sets and offer alternative things aside from loot, but what would really catch the eye and make people want to do this?
The reward structure in wow is a crude bitch in that if it offers good loot, it's required, whereas if it doesn't, then it's useless.

- - - Updated - - -

So, its exactly like current M+, but instead of having to do the entire dungeon you only do one boss at a time + some trash.

TBH, this isn't really new or innovative. Lets say you get rid of keystones and have to start at Level 1 each time. Then it just becomes tedious and grindy to get to high levels. Running low keys isn't fun, I avoid them like the plague. But if you allow players to start at some higher rank, you pretty much have the same system as current M+ again, just with shorter dungeons.

your system is actually even more frustrating since you#d never know what comes next. And that means its stupid. Currently I can target the dungeon and avoid affix/dungeons combinations that aren't going to work. imagine how much people will like it when you select extremely punising bosses. You would get the same as in D3, where people fish for a good rift. But people would fish for lucky streaks in your endless dungeon to get high ranks. Its nut fun, its grindy and boring and tedious.

The main difference is that M+ allows for spammable, timed content that is basically a zerg mode, whereas this would be a little more random to mix the tedium up a bit (since you don't know what's next and that could be a worthy challenge in itself) while also not punishing to those who don't care for the aoe blitzfest of M+ to hit every timer.
Also, not knowing what comes next could be an intrigue factor. If you avoid certain affix/boss combos because it's harder than others, that's boring, in my opinion. With the randomness of what's next, it would keep you on your toes a little more than the standard song and dance that is M+ now, where the entire run is set and never changing.
This mode also wouldn't be the primary source of loot, but as an alternative, so I don't think it would feel mandatory in that these kind of runs would generally take longer than M+, so the "gogogo" crowd would stick where they are now while others have another option.

Plus, maybe you would avoid this because you push +15 on the reg.
If this is you, good for you, play your way. I have no issue with that.
But know you are in the minority as far as people who push +15 on the reg.
You may also play a good class/spec that performs well in the zergfest, so they suit you better.
It's fine, more power to you.
Others, however, may not like it as much or even avoid M+ because it's too intimidating with the timers and such.
It's not a "new" idea, it's reusing assets in the game to add another flavor.
I'm not trying to reinvent ice cream, I just think people would like a different taste every now and then.

[Deleted]

Also, not knowing what comes next could be an intrigue factor. If you avoid certain affix/boss combos because it's harder than others, that's boring, in my opinion. With the randomness of what's next, it would keep you on your toes a little more than the standard song and dance that is M+ now, where the entire run is set and never changing.

It wouldn't be intrigueing. Most people would just complain about the randomness and only getting crappy runs. People don't blame themselves, they blame the system, and this system makes it very easy to blame. People would complain and complain and complain, and frankly, rightly so. If you are on a good run and suddenly the game decides to fuck you thats not "intrigue", its frustrating.


I'm not a fan of fishing for good rifts in Diablo, I'm certainly not a fan of being at the mercy of RNG to progress as far as I can in an endless dungeon in WoW...

it would keep you on your toes a little more than the standard song and dance that is M+ now, where the entire run is set and never changing

Every PvE aspect in the game is set in stone, and that system has been shown to work over more than a decade. Why? because people want control. They want to know that they can get farther by just being better the next time. But if all you can hope for is getting more luck the next time, then it gets frustrating.


Your "endless" dungeons would just be AoE zergs anyways. people would try to blow through the ranks as fast as possible, and people would still try to push them as high as possible. I don't see it turn out differently. You will still have groups with ridiculous ilvl requirements just as now, you will still have "ogogo" callers that can't blow fast enough through the ranks.

If you remove timers, you will have people who just wait for all their cds and heroism for every rank. So you remove HT. Great, you just removed one tool from he player just to make up for a balancing issue in your solution. But people would still wait for CDs, there are other 5 minute CDS. So you remove those. Great, now you just removed vital CDs from some classes, like Frost DKs, just to compensate for balancing issues in your solution. And where do you stop? 3m CDs? Pots?

The timer in M+ are well tuned. If you just run the dungeon normally you beat the timer. If you just do the dungeon normal and have good dps you get +2. You only really need to hurry for +3. So don#t, if thats not for you. Find some people to play with who have a more relaxed attitude. Thats what guilds are for. You don#t need another dungeon mode to fix that.

[Alvito]

The amazing amount of break free time this would take would be it's killer.

[Wenoxar]

Gr8 idea!@