The usefulness of the rogue in NH

[Deleted]

Let me just start by saying that this is not a whine/troll post, and I'm genuinely interested in the responses.

I'm part of a pretty decent raid guild, nothing too fancy or high end, we cleaned the content and are 2/10MM in NH as of now.
I'm playing an assassination rogue and I'm also part of the management of my guild, meaning I have to make decisions.
Right now I'm faced with the decision of benching part of our roster to fit the 20 men Mythic raid format.

I have to think logically about this, the way to decide who gets to go raid mythic depends on a lot of factors: player skill, raid utility, usefulness in the encounter, dps/healing output, etc..

And at some point I need to consider myself as a rogue.

Do we really need a rogue ? What do I bring to the raid ?

And the answer I've come to is: nothing much.


We have no raid utility whatsoever, no raid cooldowns, no AoE, a pretty weak cleave and a strong ST (kinda)

Now we should take a look at what other melee DPS are bringing to the raid.

DK: Strong ST, strong AoE, insane burst AoE, strong cleave, battle rez, AoE stuns, grip
DH: Strong ST, strong AoE, insane burst AoE, strong cleave, AoE stuns, Darkness
Feral: Weak Dps all around, AoE sprint, battle rez
Surv Hunter: average ST, average AoE, Strong burst AoE, No raid CD
Ret: Strong ST, strong AoE, strong cleave, BoP, freedom, mana regen blessings
Enh sham: Strong ST, weak AoE, strong cleave, ank, AoE stuns, bloodlust, purge/dispell curse
War: Strong ST, average AoE, insane AoE burst, AoE stuns(talented), commanding shout

I might have forgotten some things or you might not agree with that list, but I think it's pretty fair.

Considering what the NH encounters are made of, I don't really see a reason to bring a rogue instead of another melee DPS, apart from the difference in the player's personal skill.

I'm playing assassination and I'm talking as an assassination rogue since a vast majority of rogues play this spec.


I'm interested in knowing what your guild is doing, roster wise, and how you are considered in your guild/raid as a rogue.

[Soisoisoi]

Really high boss DPS and extremely good survival is decent enough. Not everyone has to be a special snowflake.

[crd38]

Look at any of the top guilds progressing through NH currently, they're all running 2 assassination rogues. Best boss dmg of any class and we can eat mechanics with cloak/sprint unlike DH, DK, Enhance, etc.

[Uselessrouge]

the times classes where usefull are over

you still have CoS , feint , vanish , blind ... and well great singel target DPS... you are not gonna getr more then that

[Deleted]

Let me just start by saying that this is not a whine/troll post, and I'm genuinely interested in the responses.

I'm part of a pretty decent raid guild, nothing too fancy or high end, we cleaned the content and are 2/10MM in NH as of now.
I'm playing an assassination rogue and I'm also part of the management of my guild, meaning I have to make decisions.
Right now I'm faced with the decision of benching part of our roster to fit the 20 men Mythic raid format.

I have to think logically about this, the way to decide who gets to go raid mythic depends on a lot of factors: player skill, raid utility, usefulness in the encounter, dps/healing output, etc..

And at some point I need to consider myself as a rogue.

Do we really need a rogue ? What do I bring to the raid ?

And the answer I've come to is: nothing much.


We have no raid utility whatsoever, no raid cooldowns, no AoE, a pretty weak cleave and a strong ST (kinda)

Now we should take a look at what other melee DPS are bringing to the raid.

DK: Strong ST, strong AoE, insane burst AoE, strong cleave, battle rez, AoE stuns, grip
DH: Strong ST, strong AoE, insane burst AoE, strong cleave, AoE stuns, Darkness
Feral: Weak Dps all around, AoE sprint, battle rez
Surv Hunter: average ST, average AoE, Strong burst AoE, No raid CD
Ret: Strong ST, strong AoE, strong cleave, BoP, freedom, mana regen blessings
Enh sham: Strong ST, weak AoE, strong cleave, ank, AoE stuns, bloodlust, purge/dispell curse
War: Strong ST, average AoE, insane AoE burst, AoE stuns(talented), commanding shout

I might have forgotten some things or you might not agree with that list, but I think it's pretty fair.

Considering what the NH encounters are made of, I don't really see a reason to bring a rogue instead of another melee DPS, apart from the difference in the player's personal skill.

I'm playing assassination and I'm talking as an assassination rogue since a vast majority of rogues play this spec.


I'm interested in knowing what your guild is doing, roster wise, and how you are considered in your guild/raid as a rogue.

Rogues are EXTREMELY sought after for multiple fights in Mythic NH, they dishing out some insane single target damage at the moment. Just go check the boss kill videos on wowprogress, they're in essentially every fight.

[Essem]

Ure good for boss damage and you should never be in danger of dying between CoS, feint, sprint, cheat death. Youre not gonna top the meters on anything that isnt pure single target though. But other classes can cover the "padding"

[Deleted]

extreme boss damage, one of the best classes for soaking stuff, one of the best survivability of all melees, can clear stuff (roots etc.)

what do you want more for one single specc for mythic raids?

[shaunika123]

rogues are the masters of cheesing mechanics and survival

so there's that

[Deleted]

My feelings stays the same with years :

If you don't run for, say, world 20 ===> I don't give a dam :/

Infracted.

[TwentyTwelve]

These forums are filled with people moaning about rogue dps after the bugfix, seriously can we stop?

The bug fix, nerfed our damage quite a bit, yes but we was stupidly OP and we still are very bloody strong, sure DH have higher burst and perhaps higher sustain (for now) but they are the new class, it's pretty bloody obvious they will be treated like gods until next expansion, wasn't it the same with DKs?

Apart from DH - No one else comes close to us on ST at least from my view.

We got told we are being buffed less than a full day of being `nerfed` that is bloody good and honestly, was not needed, all the baddies will cry how we need the buff but we seriously don't.

We are playing Assassination rogue - we are not meant to top both pure ST and AoE fights, what is the point of having multiple classes to choose from if that was the case?

You're an officer deciding who to bench for mythic progression? How about you don't judge the class, but judge the players performance instead?

You're 2 mythic, you've barely seen anything but the bosses you have seen should show you how good rogues are - First boss, yeah we can't be seen on recount /skada for most of the fight - who cares, boss dps should be high AF with our low CDs and his extra dmg taken phase, same with anomoly - Stick on boss full time UNLESS it's a case of the add wiping you if you aren't on them.

As someone above said, Other people can do the `padding` - If everyone is AoE spec'd then fights would be lasting much longer for you anyway, Your damage might look better but the damage that matters isn't.

[elfporn]

Rogue has the best surviability of any class/spec outside of tanks. None of the others compare even remotely.
We can also use cloak, feint, and cheat death to negate many mechanics, best example is empowered fel chains(?) on guldan, where negating it increases raid dps on boss.

Best ST/boss damage, skill/gear/legendary dependent of course. Assassination can tunnel bosses to an extreme degree, sub can funnel aoe into ST, and depending on legendaries, keep up with assassination. Your argument might be that DH/DK can do just as well at ST or aoe, our argument is that we funnel aoe/cleave into higher ST instead of sacrificing ST for aoe.

[TwentyTwelve]

I don't think you read the OP, dude. This isn't a thread complaining about low damage. Seriously, can you stop? The OP is questioning the state of Rogue utility. He's obviously wrong about "kinda weak ST," but that's not the point of his post.

You're the one perpetuating the whining.

Hes made a post basically saying rogues are donzo - Rogues are fine, we have utility, we have NEVER had a raid cooldown so i don't know why that would be an issue, Just another person bitching about rogues when it isn't needed.

EDIT: IT's true melees are very strong but as said the only melee i would say is better or can at least challenge us is DH - DKs are strong yes but i believe we have better ST and also on movement fights, DKs are screwed.

[Sephiroso]

Hes made a post basically saying rogues are donzo - Rogues are fine, we have utility, we have NEVER had a raid cooldown so i don't know why that would be an issue, Just another person bitching about rogues when it isn't needed.

EDIT: IT's true melees are very strong but as said the only melee i would say is better or can at least challenge us is DH - DKs are strong yes but i believe we have better ST and also on movement fights, DKs are screwed.

Don't talk about stuff if you don't know what you're talking about. Rogues had Smoke Bomb for like 2 previous expansions if not more as a raid cooldown until Legion.

Rogues used to provide haste or crit(i don't remember which) to the raid back when classes provided buffs to the raid. That's just to name a couple utility things rogues used to provide that were taken away with Legion.

They pretty much gutted what rogues provided best and gave it to DH.

[Deleted]

Thanks for your wonderful input. We don't give a damn about your feelings.

Bah, you can be mean ( :'( ) if you want, problem stay the same: unless you are running for a top 20 World, classes do not really matter and RL shouldn't ask themselves about taking a class or another ... :/

[TwentyTwelve]

Don't talk about stuff if you don't know what you're talking about. Rogues had Smoke Bomb for like 2 previous expansions if not more as a raid cooldown until Legion.

Rogues used to provide haste or crit(i don't remember which) to the raid back when classes provided buffs to the raid. That's just to name a couple utility things rogues used to provide that were taken away with Legion.

They pretty much gutted what rogues provided best and gave it to DH.

Fair point on Smoke Bomb, i forgot about that somehow but the raid wide buff, That dosen't really count as every class lost their raid wide buff? Again, I stand by what i say with rogues are more than fine, anyone who thinks we're in a bad spot must not be playing with a decent rogue, Highest ST with the capability of cheesing a ton of mechanics thrown at you. With the 4% buff still to come lul.

[Eazy]

We were never giving anything decent for the raid except nice DPS.

[shaunika123]

We were never giving anything decent for the raid except nice DPS.

if you genuinely think that im not sure you've ever raided competitively

[Hotmail]

Tricks of the Trade is still a pretty good ability, mate. Aside from the obvious utility that it provides on bosses like Renferal and Helya, you get to be one of the few classes that can hit a mob before the tank has threat on it, which means that in theory you get to do more damage.

And I don't know about you, but when I see a mob beating on my healers I like to be able to do something about it, so I'll take tricks over some silly Blessing that actually cuts into my class' DPS potential.

[Eazy]

if you genuinely think that im not sure you've ever raided competitively

It was just oversimplification.

[Deleted]

why bring a rogue ? ah yeah extreme strong singletarget dps. extreme strong cleave. extreme strong survivability