Why pvp feels so bad this expansion

[Deleted]

this game is not balanced around 1v1, nor is it balanced around random BGs. it's balanced around 3v3 arena.

healers are pretty balanced in 3s currently. the type of changes you are suggesting however would ruin 3s by turning it into a race to kill the enemy healer.

it would also make 3dps comps viable again, which is something that most arena players do not want as they feel it is very cheesy.

Well, I don't play arenas, never have, never will and healers are ruining other forms of PvP, such as BGs, even places like Ashran, Wintergrasp etc (even though no one does them any more).

So is there any reason why gear normalization is forced in random BGs? Everyone knows players don't really cooperate there and having healers as the hero spec that decides who wins and who loses is hardly ever fun for the losing side as as DPS, there's literally nothing you can do if the other side has a good healer.

Why can't Arenas just have separate balancing? I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

[RelaZ]

Well, I don't play arenas, never have, never will and healers are ruining other forms of PvP, such as BGs, even places like Ashran, Wintergrasp etc (even though no one does them any more).

So is there any reason why gear normalization is forced in random BGs? Everyone knows players don't really cooperate there and having healers as the hero spec that decides who wins and who loses is hardly ever fun for the losing side as as DPS, there's literally nothing you can do if the other side has a good healer.

Why can't Arenas just have separate balancing? I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

I don't think healers are ruining all other forms of PvP. I think the stat template does though (i.e completely out of whack PvP outside of instanced PvP, so not fun). It's your personal opinion that healers are a plague in PvP, not a "fact". Personally I think PvP (all forms) would be retarded and worthless without them.

[shoegazing]

Well, I don't play arenas, never have, never will and healers are ruining other forms of PvP, such as BGs, even places like Ashran, Wintergrasp etc (even though no one does them any more).

So is there any reason why gear normalization is forced in random BGs? Everyone knows players don't really cooperate there and having healers as the hero spec that decides who wins and who loses is hardly ever fun for the losing side as as DPS, there's literally nothing you can do if the other side has a good healer.

Why can't Arenas just have separate balancing? I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

I've played dps for 12 years and never had a problem dealing with healers in random BGs. CC the healer, or focus fire him. Any warlocks, mages, hunters, shamans, etc on your team should have the healer set on their focus frame and use their interrupts any time the healer tries to cast. Hell, even Rogues with Shadowstep Kick can interrupt a cast without overextending for more than a moment. Kick is a 6 second interrupt and you can follow that with Kidney Shot into Blind into Sap.... You can polymorph one healer while cycloning another, and then you can cyclone the first healer while polying the second. Oh, your teammates are just running around like idiots spamming their dps rotation and not using their CC? Sorry your team deserves to lose for playing like baddies

Either get good enough to carry your bad teammates (which is the vast, overwhelming majority of people who play random BGs on either faction) or accept losing to better teams.

If your teammates are too stupid to interrupt heals, too stupid to CC heals, too stupid to burst them down in a stun the instant they get out of position, then sorry but your team deserves that big fat loss.

[Deleted]

Excessive pruning, especially of utility and niche abilities that provided more opportunities for counterplays.

[Deleted]

I don't think healers are ruining all other forms of PvP. I think the stat template does though (i.e completely out of whack PvP outside of instanced PvP, so not fun). It's your personal opinion that healers are a plague in PvP, not a "fact". Personally I think PvP (all forms) would be retarded and worthless without them.

Ok so take LoL or HotS.. you can easily kill supports there as a damage dealer. How is it a problem? Healers in WoW are pretty much "I can't kill you, you cant kill me but I sure can ruin your fun!". From a solo player who maybe queues with 2-3 friends at most perspective anyway.

My point is that healers take 1 spot in BGs, they should be as valuable as any other player there. How can you possibly justify them being more valuable?

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I've played dps for 12 years and never had a problem dealing with healers in random BGs. CC the healer, or focus fire him. Any warlocks, mages, hunters, shamans, etc on your team should have the healer set on their focus frame and use their interrupts any time the healer tries to cast. Hell, even Rogues with Shadowstep Kick can interrupt a cast without overextending for more than a moment. Kick is a 6 second interrupt and you can follow that with Kidney Shot into Blind into Sap.... You can polymorph one healer while cycloning another, and then you can cyclone the first healer while polying the second. Oh, your teammates are just running around like idiots spamming their dps rotation and not using their CC? Sorry your team deserves to lose for playing like baddies

Either get good enough to carry your bad teammates (which is the vast, overwhelming majority of people who play random BGs on either faction) or accept losing to better teams.

If your teammates are too stupid to interrupt heals, too stupid to CC heals, too stupid to burst them down in a stun the instant they get out of position, then sorry but your team deserves that big fat loss.

Well sounds good in theory. But take this scenario.. the enemy team has 1-3 good healers, you have none. Say its AB. Both teams have zero coordination so say its 4v4 at the lumber mill. Some druid shows up, spamming HoTs on the enemy team. So as a DK what can I possibly do? Interrupt the heals? Not a chance, yea I can keep DPSing him but he wont die, he just prances around tossing instant heals around and runs away or uses CDs even if I manage to get him low.

My point is that assuming all the other players are horrible, if one team has a skilled DK and the other an equally skilled healer, the team with the healer will win. How is this fair again?

[shoegazing]

Well sounds good in theory. But take this scenario.. the enemy team has 1-3 good healers, you have none. Say its AB. Both teams have zero coordination so say its 4v4 at the lumber mill. Some druid shows up, spamming HoTs on the enemy team. So as a DK what can I possibly do? Interrupt the heals? Not a chance, yea I can keep DPSing him but he wont die, he just prances around tossing instant heals around and runs away or uses CDs even if I manage to get him low.

My point is that assuming all the other players are horrible, if one team has a skilled DK and the other an equally skilled healer, the team with the healer will win. How is this fair again?

Grip him forward so he becomes an obvious target to your teammates, stun him when he's in caster or travel form. 99% of players in random BGs are absolutely retarded so he will probably waste his barkskin and ironbark right there, quite possibly his trinket as well assuming none of those are already on CD. Just save your pillar of frost for when those CDs are down and kill him. GG.

If your team has any skill at all / marginally more awareness than a sea slug (I wouldn't count on it tho bc most people in random BGs are basically retarded and have no understanding of how to play the game), they will see the situation and swap to him with you. Even if you are training him and he isn't dying, let's say he actually uses his CDs intelligently (99% of them wont), you're forcing him to turtle in bear form where he can't heal his teammates.

[Merkicus]

I agree with what you said, apart from the last bit. I have played this game since day one (off and on in the recent xpacs), and PvP feels more balanced and enjoyable now than it has ever before. Due to the reduced role of gear and increase utility across the board - relative to earlier xpacs - fights often last longer, thus providing the players with more and more opportunities to beat the other player. What people are getting confused by is that they no longer get to properly time one thing and win as a result. That is what you keep seeing in all of these forum posts: YOU CAN't OUTPLAY ANYONE ANYMORE!!!, etc.

Just think about that for one second and you will realize how downright silly that proposition is. You can't outplay anyone? How does one player beat another player, if that is the case? Does movement, ability timing, trinket timing, ability chaining, and the like not matter anymore? What is really happening is that fights are simply lasting longer and players are forced to be better for longer periods of time as opposed to previous iterations of this game in which you simply needed to do your damage rotation and time one interrupt to secure a kill against another player.

You're probably just playing one of the OP classes in PVP if you think it's remotely fun or balanced in any way shape or form

Like I'm sure blood elf demon hunters with their self healing, ridiculous CDs, and 2 stuns 2 interrupts think the game is pretty solid

[StayTuned]

The guy says he has been playing since 2004 as if that is an argument for the idea that classes have less utility now than ever before. That is a patently false claim.

The developers appear to be trying to find the sweet-spot between quantity of abilities, class design, and overarching mechanics. At one point, classes had too little and certain classes had no chance against others; at some other point, every class had WAY too many tools and the game was bogged down by nonsense. Currently, we are somewhere in the middle and on the right track towards proper balance.

There is a reason why nearly every class and every spec within every class has a place in PvP. That used to be a laughable claim in the WoW universe. I can log onto my hunter, my monk, or my DK and spec into any of their associated specs (apart from maybe Brewmaster) and do very well, in any PvP setting. That is a fact.

Because they removed everything that made classes unique. It's easy to balance stuff when all classes are turning into the same thing with different colors.

2-3 main DD skills, 1-2 cc skills, 1-2 burst CDs

My vanilla keybindings used to be 12345qerfyxcvgtz F1F2F3F4 and all of them a 2nd time with shift modifier minus the F buttons. At some point I even had a NAGA mouse with another 6 keybindings on it.

Today they are 1234 qefr and shift- 1324 qefr for almost all my classes, that's 18+++ bindings gone.

Everyone is a 3 minute mage today.

And at the end of the day... you play for naught because there is no progression in PVP.

[Deleted]

pvp is just so boring. they took all the fun out of it.

[bestellen]

Most specs are not viable in PVP currently and what you consider viable may depend on comp. But most comps are not viable if you were being objectively honest.

[Deleted]

As someone else said earlier in this thread, other issues aside (loss of abilities, less keybinds, auto abilities... etc) PvP really needs to bring back a points system so it feels like there is some kind of progression not just RNG. You should still be able to get gear rarely on wins like now, but with points too so you can actually work towards pieces you want.

MMO's need gear progression, its obviously the driver behind everything. Would you honestly raid if bosses did not drop loot? Just for the fun of it?

Rewards also need to be given at lower ratings so that the average joe player feels like they can push towards something worth while, with gladiator / rank 1 clearly out of the chance (especially when most glad and rank 1 spots are occupied by the same elite players and there own alts all playing together).

[Deleted]

Pvp gear would also help in evening the odds, making sure every player with even a minimal pvp interest can get an even fighting chance, like it more or less was on all previous expansions before legion and artifact weapons.

[deathshere]

i disagree, to me this expansion feels a lot better then wod ever did. There are some major issues but those arent actually about the pvp itself but more about how you get pvp gear, world pvp and similar. The pvp itself feels fast and fun. The 3v3 focus still makes healers a bit too tanky but otherwise its not bad at all.

If they put in 40% dampening or so as baseline battle fatigue the game would play rather nicely without 2 minutes of nothing happening every arena. I dont really feel the pruning to be honest. Especially with all the honour talents. Granted i dont play a shaman or a mage, but most classes got a big part of their toolkit back or equivalent talents. I really dont like how some classes play (sub rogues, ranged hunters) but i do like the general feel of pvp this expansion. Feels a lot like wrath but without the clunkyness (which took a bit part of the skill away, sure, but still).


Actually, now that i think about it theres actually very little real pruning happening for most classes at least if you compare it to wod.

bwuaahahahaahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahahha gtfo

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Because they removed everything that made classes unique. It's easy to balance stuff when all classes are turning into the same thing with different colors.

2-3 main DD skills, 1-2 cc skills, 1-2 burst CDs

My vanilla keybindings used to be 12345qerfyxcvgtz F1F2F3F4 and all of them a 2nd time with shift modifier minus the F buttons. At some point I even had a NAGA mouse with another 6 keybindings on it.

Today they are 1234 qefr and shift- 1324 qefr for almost all my classes, that's 18+++ bindings gone.

Everyone is a 3 minute mage today.

And at the end of the day... you play for naught because there is no progression in PVP.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...33/710/7ac.jpg