[Arcane] 4p a DPS Loss? Or SimC not correct?

[Demindar]

So I got my 4p last night (mostly normal mode pieces, in which 3 of them were still upgrades over the other slots I had; none replacing legendaries). However, I have a H WF helm. Maybe its my gear combinations? Just overall looking for help.

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ivaci/advanced

The only thing that would change for 4p would be helm swap with normal tier helm.

Trinkets I have available to me right now are:

Corrupted Starlight 845
Unstable Horrorslime 870
Devilsaur Shock-Baton 840
Unstable Arcanocrystal 860
Oakheart's Gnarled Root 860
Swarming Plaguehive 870
Twisting Wind 865
Erratic Metronome 870

Legendaries I have are Belt, Boots, and Wrist.


Sooooo.... Is the 4p really a dps loss? If not, how am I supposed to utilize it? By the time it gets low enough AP is near off CD. What trinkets should I be using? Any help is much appreciated!

[Deleted]

I believe with Arcane power the simcraft just uses it with evocation therefore you get 0 benefit from it.

In reality AP reduces mana by so much you want to use it on cooldown even if evocation doesn't line up with it

[Lebanese Dude]

It's logically impossible for it to be a DPS loss. A lower cooldown on Evocation implies more resources to work with which is more damage.

Arcane's APL cannot accurately predict how much mana to use in a unit time and therefore it enters conserve phase at a predetermined time. This means that it does not reach 0% mana by the time Evocation is off cooldown.

Basically, the present APL cannot use the 4pc effectively.

[Demindar]

It's logically impossible for it to be a DPS loss. A lower cooldown on Evocation implies more resources to work with which is more damage.

Arcane's APL cannot accurately predict how much mana to use in a unit time and therefore it enters conserve phase at a predetermined time. This means that it does not reach 0% mana by the time Evocation is off cooldown.

Basically, the present APL cannot use the 4pc effectively.

Its not impossible to being a dps loss as there is much better itemized gear for us depending on your current stat weights.

[Sylvaeres]

Its not impossible to being a dps loss as there is much better itemized gear for us depending on your current stat weights.

You get more mana. It's not even debateable

[Demindar]

You get more mana. It's not even debateable

So how do you yourself use it? Im curious cause I have yet to find a build or playstyle where it really comes handy.

[Bioreducto]

I don't know about raids, but I think the 4pc set along with the gravity spiral legendary will be good for mythic plus dungeons. You will be able to burn mana more during add fights with out having sit down and eat food all the time and without worrying about not having evocation ready for the boss fights

[Demindar]

I don't know about raids, but I think the 4pc set along with the gravity spiral legendary will be good for mythic plus dungeons. You will be able to burn mana more during add fights with out having sit down and eat food all the time and without worrying about not having evocation ready for the boss fights

Yeah i can see it benefiting with Gravity Spiral, even in raids. However thats the only case I ever see it actually being used.

[Skylarking]

A few times i have found that evo came off cooldown before AP. Maybe thats why sim devalues it so much?

[Lebanese Dude]

So how do you yourself use it? Im curious cause I have yet to find a build or playstyle where it really comes handy.

It has literally nothing to do with playstyle. Evocation is nothing more than a resource reset button.

The 4pc reduces your Evocation cooldown by up to 20-30 seconds depending on RNG. That's 20-30 less seconds you spend on a potential conserve phase.

[Demindar]

It has literally nothing to do with playstyle. Evocation is nothing more than a resource reset button.

The 4pc reduces your Evocation cooldown by up to 20-30 seconds depending on RNG. That's 20-30 less seconds you spend on a potential conserve phase.

So what youre saying is to not pair Arcane Power and Evocation together? Just use Arcane Power on CD? So say if Arcane Power is off CD, but evo isnt, you still use it and just do like a mini-burn until AP wears off?

[a0kalittlema0n]

I do wish that they would work on a proper APL though.

Coming from someone who has spent hours on the APL and adjusting it for the 4 pc, let me say easier said than done. Not to mention that the fights average 5 minutes, which over that time you might get an additional Evo. The next problem (since a group of us got the 4 pc to "work") is having it come out as a DPS increase in SimC, which is the next challenge yet to be seen.

I personally run with 25% haste, 2 set from CoS/Arc, Rhonin's, and Metronome and I am able to delay my AP for about 10 seconds to use Evocation first after for my 2nd AP/Evo. This allows me to slowly have the Evo CD catch up with another AP.

TLR - SimC doesn't use it well, it has been worked on (and is still being worked on, its free work that we spend time on instead of WoW, so be patient) and if the 4 set wasn't bugged it would be better and wouldn't be looked at as a DPS loss to ilvl.

[plunkyjon]

So what youre saying is to not pair Arcane Power and Evocation together? Just use Arcane Power on CD? So say if Arcane Power is off CD, but evo isnt, you still use it and just do like a mini-burn until AP wears off?

This just got me a little confused, and I'm fairly new to arcane... isn't using evocate while in AP a dps LOSS, especially with Overpowered? What's the advantage to using evocate in AP?

[schwarzkopf]

It's logically impossible for it to be a DPS loss. A lower cooldown on Evocation implies more resources to work with which is more damage.

Think about it - the more often you case AM, the shorter the CD on Evocation... HOWEVER, the more you cast AM the lower your need for Evocation.

The 4pc is contradictory to itself... the more value it gives you, the less value it gives you.

[Delath]

A lot of people seem to be stuck in the old arcane mindset. You can use AP at practically any time (subject to timing with RoP etc ofc) as long as you have enough mana to last the duration of the AP, at least simply put. After that it doesn't matter much damage wise if you conserve at 80% or 20% mana and end up at 0 when Evo is availible, which is a scenario the 4 set makes occur sooner rather than later. The mana level itself doesn't matter anymore after the mastery change, it's just a pool of resources that eventually runs out. The 4 set simply gives you more of this limited resource to play with through more Evo usage. AP usage is more related to combining it with other cooldowns in relation to e.g. fight duration than strictly timing it with Evo in my opinion.

[Nitros14]

The 4 piece and gravity spiral sim poorly because the APL doesn't adapt and evocate on cooldown when it comes up. It's a simcraft issue. But making it do that would get rid of other optimizations so it's not simple to fix.