The Mythic elisande stealth buff?

[noladrew]

Name one boss in the past 5 raid tiers where you had to drop 50% of your healing roster to kill it.

Most guilds 2 maybe 3 healed mythic archimonde.... you say cutting 50% of the healing roster like its a huge number, kinda like saying cutting 50% of the dps to add healers.... its dropping like 2 at most generally speaking. more fights are 4 healed than 5.

spoils of pandaria, also 2 healed generally, as high end guilds go.

quite a few fights within the last 5 tiers have been able to drop healers to add dps, not only to meet the requirement, but more often than not it can push these high end guilds through phases faster, reducing a lot of the damage that may have been expected with the bare minimum amount of dps.

[Extremity]

I don't really understand what's going on with the PTR testing. Are there not enough people testing? Are such a large majority of testers high-caliber players so issues "like enrage timers that are too short for the average group" make it through unnoticed? I feel like the latter may be the issue, and I think it's one that needs to be solved; changes like this should happen before the fight is released, or *dramatically* sooner. There really should be more incentive for the average player to participate in the PTR outside of "I get to see this early" because that's clearly not enough; even if it were just a feat of strength achievement for X participation (however they determined it) for patch Y's PTR phase, more people (more being relative) would participate.

[Super Kami Dende]

You seriously think anyone killing Elisande atm aint got set bonuses? :L :L :L

all 20 people with mythic 4 set?

[durrtygoodz]

Most guilds 2 maybe 3 healed mythic archimonde.... you say cutting 50% of the healing roster like its a huge number, kinda like saying cutting 50% of the dps to add healers.... its dropping like 2 at most generally speaking. more fights are 4 healed than 5.

No, I say 50% because that's what it is. If you're 4 healing every fight and then cut to two, that's 50%. Pretty basic maths mate. Cutting half your healers is significant and yes it's poor design.

spoils of pandaria, also 2 healed generally, as high end guilds go.

quite a few fights within the last 5 tiers have been able to drop healers to add dps, not only to meet the requirement, but more often than not it can push these high end guilds through phases faster, reducing a lot of the damage that may have been expected with the bare minimum amount of dps.

Please realise I'm talking about progression here, not farm. Mythic Archimonde was 4 healed for world first. Idc that guilds 1 healed it a year later with full gear and max level ring.

- - - Updated - - -

all 20 people with mythic 4 set?

Mythic set bonus and heroic set bonus is one and the same.

[Tehterokkar]

Well it wasn't a major oversight, since these things aren't tuned for much lower Gear levels. Yet since Progression Raiders have low gear levels their DPS checks generally require them to drop a healer or 2.

The average Mythic guild doing progression up to said point would've taken a few weeks and in that time gather Set Bonuses and ilvl increase which would add more damage, meaning they wouldn't be in such a tight spot for DPS checks as pro raiders.

It's not about gear levels. It's literally the fact that there is nothing to heal, the abilities don't do enough damage to warrant an extra healer or two.

If world first guilds notice that the healing requirements don't seem steep, then why would they bring 4 healers when 2 of them are basically afk the entire fight?

Taking a look back at HFC, why was Xhul'horac 3 healed and Fel Reaver 5 healed? Fel Reaver was the 2nd boss in the instance while Xhul'horac was usually the 11th.

The answer is that on Fel Reaver most of the damage is unavoidable, people are taking damage all the time from the fire blasts boss shoots, fire patches on ground and the AoE channel. Now look at Xhul'horac, the only damage people took were the 2 debuffs(1 which was negated by a Shaman totem always) and other did barely any damage. Along the fact that Black Holes and Fire Chains were immunity soaked so no extra healing required for people. So in short it was literally only the tanks taking damage.

Most guilds 2 maybe 3 healed mythic archimonde.... you say cutting 50% of the healing roster like its a huge number, kinda like saying cutting 50% of the dps to add healers.... its dropping like 2 at most generally speaking. more fights are 4 healed than 5.

spoils of pandaria, also 2 healed generally, as high end guilds go.

quite a few fights within the last 5 tiers have been able to drop healers to add dps, not only to meet the requirement, but more often than not it can push these high end guilds through phases faster, reducing a lot of the damage that may have been expected with the bare minimum amount of dps.

Here's where you are wrong m8.

Archimonde
It was only 2/3 healed by pleb guilds who couldn't handle the mechanics, it became the most common strategy to zerg the boss in p1 to get only 1 orb, thus reducing the healing required in p2 by a lot. And P3 healing requirement was pretty easy in the first place. The first kills for top 100 were 4 or 5 heal where you didn't have the iLvl buff or very high iLvl ring because you actually got 3 orbs' worth of fire patches(30-34 stacks).

Spoils of Pandaria
Pardon? Spoils was 4 healed by literally every guild until deep into farm.

[Deleted]

Name one boss in the past 5 raid tiers where you had to drop 50% of your healing roster to kill it.

10 man Garrosh?

[Spotnick]

Name one boss in the past 5 raid tiers where you had to drop 50% of your healing roster to kill it.

L

Xhul'arac was 3 healed.

Never seen 2 healed before though.

Usually on mythic progression you should be tempted to add healers, not cut them.

[Tojara]

I raided 10 man in MoP and I don't know if citing Garrosh 10 man or a number of other encounters really counted. Sure Heroic Garrosh was solo healed by the first guild, but the vast majority of people duo healed that boss. We solo healed Durumu during progression on 10 man too, but that certainly wasn't the norm. I'd count really under healing bosses not by what WF guilds, or a single guild does, but by what is considered the norm.

Star Augur is a good example of this because most guilds prior to the change 2 healed this boss, which to me spells terrible balancing. Same as Heroic Ragnaros back on 25 man in Cataclysm. It was the norm to 3 heal the boss, which when you consider you had 25 people, 3 healing a boss is pretty terrible balance in my opinion, regardless of how great an encounter might be.

Since 20 man has been out I don't think any boss was 2 healed right out of the gate though. Xhul'horoac we 3 healed, and a few other bosses we 3 healed as well.

Personally I think Blizzard is out of ideas because the only way to 'stump' guilds is to make incredibly stupid DPS requirements, instead of properly balancing an encounter to require about 4 healers, all the while having proper DPS requirements as well.

Star Augurs DPS check shouldn't exist, or rather, a DPS check should exist but not to the point of dropping to two healers. In addition to that, while probably unpopular with some, when it's clear that encounters are shaping up to have that kind of balancing, they should really change them as soon as possible and not wait several weeks to make changes. I realize some people like watching WF race and shit, but it should be pretty clear to Blizzard that Star Augur, and to a lesser degree Elisande have pretty shitty healing requirements, and huge DPS requirements. Why wait so long to change it? Same as solo tank fights. They had a problem with Guarm being solo tanked by a couple of tanks to make the DPS requirements, but didn't change the fucking boss for 4 weeks, and their explanation for the changes were because they didn't like that it was solo tanked? Are they waiting for some revolutionary changes in strategy by guilds that come after these top tier guilds? Guilds that are worse in nearly every category to just add healers and tanks when encounters are tuned improperly? Kind of retarded considering most guilds that come after base their shit off of what guilds ahead of them do. No guild for example is going to start 4 healing Krosus anytime soon.

Listen. I'm not really a fan of them changing encounters mid progression anyway. I'd rather these mess ups in balancing not happen before encounters hit live servers, but if the status quo is to keep changing encounters once they are live, they should really do it as soon as possible instead of waiting several weeks to change them. I liked what they did to change Il'gynoth for example on Mythic as it was in the spirit of the encounter, but I wasn't happy that they did it several weeks after progression.

[KaPe]

It's funny how one way of enforcing set number of healers were dispels on Helya. Of course, Shadow Priests and Warlocks made it irrelevant, but it is one of few ways which cannot be brute forced by cooldowns, immunities and similar things. They should also take a look at mana regen abilities, so two healing something would actually run people dry, instead of relying on Moonkins to act as (vastly superior) mana potions.

And dropping multiple healers is a problem for plenty of guilds. Healers are already passing on gear, because dpsers need it more, and they are also first to be benched. You work just as hard as everyone else, you receive less rewards and there's a decent chance you won't get to participate in first kills, because (Shaman/Paladin) is "needed" and you're not.

[Keashaa]

And dropping multiple healers is a problem for plenty of guilds. Healers are already passing on gear, because dpsers need it more, and they are also first to be benched. You work just as hard as everyone else, you receive less rewards and there's a decent chance you won't get to participate in first kills, because (Shaman/Paladin) is "needed" and you're not.

Not to forget that (from my experience) healers are more reliable people than dps. So having a stable pool of healers is easier to maintain than having a stable pool of dps, resulting in dps always playing (because there's no one to bench) while healers always need to discus who's gonna benched out today.

[Tiberria]

Most guilds 2 maybe 3 healed mythic archimonde.... you say cutting 50% of the healing roster like its a huge number, kinda like saying cutting 50% of the dps to add healers.... its dropping like 2 at most generally speaking. more fights are 4 healed than 5.

spoils of pandaria, also 2 healed generally, as high end guilds go.

quite a few fights within the last 5 tiers have been able to drop healers to add dps, not only to meet the requirement, but more often than not it can push these high end guilds through phases faster, reducing a lot of the damage that may have been expected with the bare minimum amount of dps.

No, I am pretty sure that the initial top 20 world level Archi kills were 4 healed, and the 2-3 healer zerg strats only became a thing on later kills (because you needed more weeks of gear to even make those DPS checks) to better avoid mechanics. 25H Spoils also definitely wasn't 2 healed; it was typically 5-6 healed if I remember correctly - 4 at minimum. You could not solo heal one of the sides without massively overgearing it.

The underlying issue isn't necessarily that 2 healer fights or 5 healer fights exist (or hell, even 6 healer fights because one of the early M Cenarius strats was to 6 heal it). The issue is the lack of consistency and what that does to your roster. They have taken the stance in the last few expansions that 1 tank fights are not acceptable - at least until you massively overgear it (look at how they hotfixed Guarm for example). This is because it's not really fair that you need 2 tanks for everything else, and your 2nd tank suddenly has no value to the raid because of fight design.

It's exactly the same thing for healers - if not worse. There are 5 heal fights this tier (CA and Spellblade) and basically every tier. As long as 5 heal fights exist, you're pretty much required to carry 5 healers on your roster, if not 6 to allow for people having to miss days here and there and still being able to clear the boss. When they allow 2 heal fights to exist due to basically bad encounter design and balancing, 60 to 67% of your healing roster suddenly has no raid spot. Not only that, when you 2-3 heal fights, you usually need a specific healing comp, and there are usually 2-3 specific specs you would take, locking people out completely.

If you have a typical 25 man mythic roster, you probably have 17-19 DPS. Every fight requires 13-16 DPS, so you are never going to see a situation where the majority of your DPS gets no raid time. At the end of the day, I don't really care how much people may like underhealed DPS burns or how fun they are, they should continue to re-balance them, because they aren't fair to people that play healers any moreso than solo tank fights are fair to tanks. Sure, DPS players may like these things and be the majority, but the majority enjoying something doesn't make it right or reasonable. For a ridiculous example of that, I'm sure the white majority of the pre-Civil War USA enjoyed keeping slaves too. That didn't make it the right thing to do.

[Cracked]

Well it wasn't a major oversight, since these things aren't tuned for much lower Gear levels. Yet since Progression Raiders have low gear levels their DPS checks generally require them to drop a healer or 2.

The average Mythic guild doing progression up to said point would've taken a few weeks and in that time gather Set Bonuses and ilvl increase which would add more damage, meaning they wouldn't be in such a tight spot for DPS checks as pro raiders.

Hm, the problem with this is the titanforging bullshit. Most of W1-3 kills were with average ilvl of full mythic gear. So does the average mythic guild need to run for weeks just for titanforge procs so they can have 5-10 ilvl more on average? Because the fights are tuned much higher because of it.