[Prot] Reference for optimal talents - Nighthold

[Deleted]

Hello fellow tanks,

As we have all (hopefully) come to realize each boss in Nighthold requires a different approach for an effective counter. We have the full sprectrum with bosses doing predominantly physical damage, bosses doing pure magic damage and then some with a mixture of both.

I personally got tired of having to double check which boss i am currently on and what talents I need to switch around. So I quickly whipped up this at a glance cheat sheet. It's intended for when you want to just go autopilot mode during your farm runs and have an easy time tanking.

The talents and gear setups are also a good starting point when beginning progression on a new boss.

http://mightyraider.com/nighthold-ta...prot-warriors/

I hope some of you will find this helpful!

[Valech]

Default build: Anger management and Booming voice. I´m out.

[Deleted]

tl;dr much?

[Lysozyme]

You absolutely should not use Booming Voice when using Devastator and concerned with survivability.

[Deleted]

I am curious why you say that.

With Devastator you often have moments where you are flooded with Shield Slam procs and don't have a free GCD to use your vengeanced Revenge between Thunder Clap also coming off CD. On fights that are a mix between magic and physical damage and tank swaps occurring every 30s with AM+BV combo you will have Demo Shout up for every time you take the boss.

This is not to say it is better than HR + Vengeance... But depending on the boss fight - definitely on par and quite a refreshing playstyle alternative.

As far as my "default build" suggestion goes. With 890+ ilvl on Heroic Nightlod survivability should not be a concern.

[Toybox]

With Devastator you often have moments where you are flooded with Shield Slam procs and don't have a free GCD to use your vengeanced Revenge between Thunder Clap also coming off CD.

Then you make a choice. You can either continue to build rage upto near the cap and/or when survivability needs a buff, or just cast ignore pain without casting revenge first (it's only a small difference in rage).

Vengeance is so far ahead of the other two talents for survivability it's unreal.

[Deleted]

Vengeance is so far ahead of the other two talents for survivability it's unreal.

In which context?

[Lysozyme]

BV is not "on par" for survivability when using Devastator.

You don't need to have a free cast of revenge for Vengeance to be good. That makes it even better.

Assuming you do not have a free cast of revenge, then if you have Vengeance, revenge costs the equivalent of zero rage, because your next ignore pain's cost will be reduced by the amount that your revenge cost (slightly more than that, in fact).

If you do not have Vengeance, then revenge costs 30 rage. Each cast of revenge loses you half of an ignore pain.

Does that seem worth it to you?

[deadmanfred]

BV is not "on par" for survivability when using Devastator.

You don't need to have a free cast of revenge for Vengeance to be good. That makes it even better.

Assuming you do not have a free cast of revenge, then if you have Vengeance, revenge costs the equivalent of zero rage, because your next ignore pain's cost will be reduced by the amount that your revenge cost (slightly more than that, in fact).

If you do not have Vengeance, then revenge costs 30 rage. Each cast of revenge loses you half of an ignore pain.

Does that seem worth it to you?

1st off vengeance is only better if you get free revenge to use, which is literally every situation except star argur. In a minute Booming voice will get out 90 extra rage while vengeance only saves you 10.5 rage a min not inlcuding free revenge procs. Getting 4 or 5 revenge procs is all it takes to push vengeance as being better, but it requires you to be able to play both vengeance and devestator correctly.

If your playing AM + BV you wouldn't hit revenge unless it was free, you only save 1.5 rage per vengeance cycle twords the IP, using revenge just nets you a "free" chance at a shield slam reset. (I guess it adds damage but BV dps increase overshadows this) Thing is Vengeance is only better if your playing very well, spending rage on a IP less then 35 rage is actually losing you rage, where as without vengeance you would just casting a smaller IP and not really losing rage. BV is much less rng dependant and requires a lower skill cap, anyone not pushing mythic Krosus and higher will probably never find vengeance mandatory for survival.

I know you know the math and we're beating you with a dead horse on the matter, but UNLESS a player is getting absolute wrecked I wouldn't suggest vengeance. And yes you would simply not hit revenge if using BV because duh it costs rage unless it procs.

[Deleted]

It really depends on the type of environment you are in. When looking at strictly Booming voice vs Vengeance, then, as deadmanfred said, it doesn't take much for Vengeance to win out. BV needs Anger Management to be viable. With AM you can get twice as many Demo Shouts in, which throughout the course of a typical encounter will be at least (if not more) rage gain, than through Vengeance.
However, on progression fights with 60%+ physical damage, you cannot afford to pick AM over HR, thus removing the option of BV.

On farm bosses however, if you are not absolutely bleeding edge tryharding, BV+AM will in fact come very close to V+HR in terms of mitigated damage.

Unfortunately, we cannot easily use sims for this due to how broken they are for tanks. I am working on crunching some numbers and going through logs to try and explicitly show this.

[Toybox]

1st off vengeance is only better if you get free revenge to use, which is literally every situation except star argur. In a minute Booming voice will get out 90 extra rage while vengeance only saves you 10.5 rage a min not inlcuding free revenge procs. Getting 4 or 5 revenge procs is all it takes to push vengeance as being better, but it requires you to be able to play both vengeance and devestator correctly.

If your playing AM + BV you wouldn't hit revenge unless it was free, you only save 1.5 rage per vengeance cycle twords the IP, using revenge just nets you a "free" chance at a shield slam reset. (I guess it adds damage but BV dps increase overshadows this) Thing is Vengeance is only better if your playing very well, spending rage on a IP less then 35 rage is actually losing you rage, where as without vengeance you would just casting a smaller IP and not really losing rage. BV is much less rng dependant and requires a lower skill cap, anyone not pushing mythic Krosus and higher will probably never find vengeance mandatory for survival.

I know you know the math and we're beating you with a dead horse on the matter, but UNLESS a player is getting absolute wrecked I wouldn't suggest vengeance. And yes you would simply not hit revenge if using BV because duh it costs rage unless it procs.

Not really.

Revenge can reset Shield Slam, so pressing it with SS & TC on CD is not only good for Vengeance weaving, but gives us more resets & more rage from SS. If you don't take Vengeance, every Revenge you cast is essentially taking rage away from Ignore Pain & thus survivability.

[Deleted]

Not really.

Revenge can reset Shield Slam, so pressing it with SS & TC on CD is not only good for Vengeance weaving, but gives us more resets & more rage from SS. If you don't take Vengeance, every Revenge you cast is essentially taking rage away from Ignore Pain & thus survivability.

You guys keep using the argument of casting a 30 rage cost revenge without Vengeance.

See:

If your playing AM + BV you wouldn't hit revenge unless it was free

You are casting less revenges which will lead to less SS procs, but this difference is largely negated by the increased rage generation within the demo shout window thanks to might of the Vrykul artifact ability.

[deadmanfred]

You guys keep using the argument of casting a 30 rage cost revenge without Vengeance.

See:



You are casting less revenges which will lead to less SS procs, but this difference is largely negated by the increased rage generation within the demo shout window thanks to might of the Vrykul artifact ability.

THANK YOU, yes this is what I'm trying to say. So many people read 1 sentance and immedialty disreguard the rest of my comment. The rage generation/rage saved of both talents is negligable unless your doing bleeding end progression.

Harping on new players of the spec/ less skilled players to use Vengenace for survivability is in my opinion not cool.

[Lysozyme]

If you just don't cast revenge, with Devastator, you are a gibbering moron. Even if you just don't cast it unless it's free. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. The idea that doing that is stronger than indomitable, or even remotely viable, for survivability, is laughable, and you should - if not delete your character - certainly refrain from dispensing advice in a public forum.

[Deleted]

Thank you for that refreshing dose of ragepost. This discussion was way too civil for way too long. We got into talking about abstract hypotheticals which is never constructive in my opinion.

The encounters I suggest for AM+BV are such where you have plenty of down time between tank swaps or are largely magic damage. Take Trilliax for example. When you are not active tanking the boss, you certainly use revenge and it doesn't matter that you lose rage from IP, because you don't need the IP/survivability at that point (yet you still can use IP when the co-tank slash comes). When you take the boss, you stop using revenge for that 20-30s window of active tanking and let demo shout carry your mitigation and compensate for the rage generation of less SS procs.

On average you will take a bit more damage from melee swings, but take less damage from the spikey slashes...

On Skorpyron it's whatever, but more damage during vulnerability.
On Chrono anomaly - Demo shout helps mitigate the ticking dot, you can burst the boss during vulnerability and revenge when not active tank.
Krosus/Augur I guess all can agree on.
Elisande is somewhat similar to Trilliax - melee hits do 500k average and a lot of magic damage sources, but I don't have insight about mythic since only 4 logs...

Honeslty. I am surprised how much of an acute response this is getting. To me, my reasoning seems justifiable. It's not like I am trying to overthrow the HR+V regime or anything...

P.S.

In fact, if you are weaving on Trilliax while not active tanking the boss, you are wasting rage, because you would be pressing IP on a maxed out absorb shield...

[Lysozyme]

If you're tanking for even half the fight, like on Trilliax, it's a significant net loss. Demo shout doesn't "carry your mitigation" compared to the additional revenges.

[Voyle]

Vengeance is a 50% buff to ignore pain. How is this still being discussed.

[Sorbocles]

this guy has no idea what he's talking about. He has 4 heroic kills (not mythic, heroic) and they're all sub 70%. He's likely basing his talent choices off of the Koreans who have the first half of mythic on farm so they just want them fat parses.

[Shieldarm]

Which guy? There's a few guys in the debate here making it hard to tell who you're referring to, Sorbocles.

Either way, I can see the merit of his logic. However, I would say it doesn't entirely depend on you, either. Instead, you have to also consider your healers.

For example, my team, after taking a hit and not being able to really do Mythic, is not currently using a strong tank healing setup. We don't have the fanciest of burst healing, that you might expect from say, a holy paladin. As such, I have to focus pretty heavily on smoothing out my damage, so that the hots and such are more helpful for me. I rarely sit above 75% hp (except when not tanking of course), but I use Veng/HR (AM on magic fights), so I can do my best to pump out those IPs.

On the other hand, if my group had stronger tank healing, than I could feel more comfortable running AM/BV. I get a little less uptime on Shield Block, and I am a bit more cooldown reliant and a bit squishier once those cooldowns fall off. But, if you have a healing setup that can compensate for that, then the extra/controlled bursting of damage/mitigation respectively will be more valuable for me.

[SheepHunter]

If you dont even have legendary gloves its time to reroll another class))