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  1. #41
    Keep in mind that 40% more damage on aimed shots straight up is a buff to AOE with trick shot, whether you've got the belt or not. It's still 40% more damage on the trick shotted aimeds, because the main one is bigger.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    In fairness, expecting to have two mostly mobile specs just isn't really fair. Like it or not, being entirely mobile just isn't something ranged should be with no drawbacks. Having BM that has the drawback of pet AI is as close as we should ever really get - having MM be entirely mobile is just asinine, and while it does decent damage, you'll find that outside of AOE padding it's significantly worse than the standard trick shot spec if played properly - there's never really a boss where the AOE damage is important enough to warrant the huge loss in boss damage for going that route (and seeing hunters go explosive shot etc to pad on tichondrius because "LOL NUMBERS" just hurts my soul).

    Likewise, you can't imagine that a spec that's built entirely around dumping focus with aimed shot realistically wouldn't get buffs to aimed shot through the tier.
    The flip side is that we had 2, and even 1 xpac had 3, completely mobile specs, so some could argue that it's unfair that Hunters lost that niche. The last part of that paragraph, short of padding on Skorpyron and keeping the boss on the add spawn point, AoE isn't really padding as the adds need to die. That is useful damage, not an "ignore adds moment but keep padding on them" situation. We need both options to be viable based on talent choices (as some raids might be lacking one or the other and certain classes fill that role), we don't need to be made into Feral Druids and be a 1 trick pony from tier (ST and no AoE and little to no cleave).
    Buffs to AiS are fine, but this isn't a straight buff to AiS to make it appealing to use, this is pigeonholing people into playing a specific way.
    They could easily design tier to buff certain things or grant buffs from signature abilities that will enhance the class and all talent choices instead of going for a specific "play this way" style (something Blizzard has said they want to get away from).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic View Post
    For you first part, I wrote pretty much that on the post before this. So we can agree on that : )
    For the second part I disagree that we will be "useless" on any style of AoE fight. The new windburst trait is going to be huge if you can plan/line it up well. It's a 1800% weapon damage over 6 sec on all mobs within the trail. Also (granted you will need the legendary belt for this) a huge portion of the AoE will be a boosted AiS through trickshot. Again it is too bad that it is item bound in this case, but it is far from useless. It actually looks VERY good.

    My prediction is that MM will be top 3 specc for ToS. The vulnerable trait will probably nerfed though.

    Again, with correct gear (aka belt/gloves/boots) it is just insane. Not many speccs/classes can say that.
    Again, this comes down to movement and lining things up. The second we encounter a fight like Spellblade, or even one from HFC, where the tank S key 1 step and the boss jumps around, WB loses its function.
    Trickshot will also only hit other Vulnerable targets, something that will not always reliably be up during add burn phases short of using Sentinel, a 60 second CD that applies Mark every 6 seconds.
    The last part of your post also deals with something I already stated, that if you have the correct legendaries the spec will play that much better, and without it will feel worse and not as rewarding. This also goes to the issue that the tier and buffs are being designed around the idea that every player has these specific legendaries already, something that definitely shouldn't happen (like Blizzqrd tuning mythic bosses around 50-54 traits). Personally, I've been playing since launch (went casual 5 weeks ago) and I'm not a slacker by any means prior to being casual. I have 6 legendaries, only 1 specific to MM with 1 specific to SV (switched specs as casual because why not), with 4 generics. Your example shows exactly why I would be screwed over (in a manner of speaking) and why others would dominate me in progression raids.
    The main point is, buffs are good, but the tier could still be designed around the spec as a whole and not forcing a playstyle for all encounters.
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2017-03-24 at 12:38 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    The flip side is that we had 2, and even 1 xpac had 3, completely mobile specs, so some could argue that it's unfair that Hunters lost that niche.

    .
    First off, expecting specs to maintain their niche through expansion reworks is also asinine. By that logic, Arcane mage shouldn't be able to do any AOE, and just do pure singletarget. Likewise, destro warlocks absolutely demolished AOE in SoO, so they should only be AOE now as well - that was their niche, right? (Meanwhile destro aoe is woefully lacking, in favor of the best 2-target cleave with Havoc).
    The fact that a spec retains that niche is insanely nice, and if people can't play their hunter without having to be 100% mobile, then they might want to go BM,
    because that's the niche it fills. Everything about MM says "sniper", not "jump-and-explode".

    The last part of that paragraph, short of padding on Skorpyron and keeping the boss on the add spawn point, toying isn't really padding as the adds need to die. That is useful damage, not an "ignore adds moment but keep padding on them" situation. We need both options to be viable based on talent choices (as some raids might be lacking one or the other and certain classes fill that role), we don't need to be made into Feral Druids and be a 1 trick pony from tier (ST and no AoE and little to no cleave).
    But this is bullshit, you know that right? MM without explosive shot and piercing shot has damn fine AOE damage. Trick shot+Marked shot does exceptionally well on any fight where you REQUIRE burst AOE. I mean fuck, let's go look through the top 5 logs of Spellblade right now, one of the maybe three fights where you can defend the meme-spec choice in mythic as potentially being "better", and the only fight that has any sort of on-demand AOE requirement (the other two fights being Botanist, where meme spec is OK because you lose a lot of benefit from trick shot due to multishotting to put hunters mark on plasma orbs/adds from orbs and getting vuln on ignored targets, and tich where bloods need to die at some points) -
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...translate=true Memespec hunter, 201M boss 132M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done trick shot hunter, 208M boss 111M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done trick shot hunter, 215M boss 144M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done Meme spec hunter, 239M boss 154M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done Trick shot hunter, 244M boss 118M ice adds.

    I mean, there's not even a big difference, strictly speaking, between the two performance wise right now in the AOE department - but the meme spec has a clear issue with single target on most encounters (the highest ranked meme-spec hunter on Krosus is Squallne at 21, and there's actually a sidewinders hunter beating him. Fucking asians, man). That being said, even on Tichondrius which is the other "on demand" aoe fight (to burst down bloods), barely anyone is even touching the meme spec. Botanist has a few but trick shot still beats it quite well into the ground, but I can see the point of the memespec if your guildies can't hit the lashers and you have to essentially solo them like this guy:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...translate=true


    So yea, I call utter fucking bullshit to what you're saying. Meme spec shines when the AOE damage isn't actually needed, because it's 100% frontloaded (explo, piercing, a few marked shots and done), but by virtue, you didn't really need to spec into better AOE if things die so quickly that you have to spec into burst-AOE, did you?



    Buffs to AiS are fine, but this isn't a straight buff to AiS to make it appealing to use, this is pigeonholing people into playing a specific way.
    They could easily design tier to buff certain things or grant buffs from signature abilities that will enhance the class and all talent choices instead of going for a specific "play this way" style
    That's bullshit though. It's giving the more difficult spec an advantage because it makes use of aimed shot. You can still play the meme spec next week if you want, but you're just only going to be competitive on AOE damage, and no longer get within 85-90% on single target as well. It's a buff to the single target spec. You can't both have strong AOE, be almost entirely mobile, and do great single target damage - you get to pick 2 of 3. Want AOE+Mobility? Meme. Want AOE+singletarget? Trick shot. Want singletarget+mobility? BM.



    While they could give us buffs for random shit like shooting arcane or marked shots, I fail to see why they should - and even if they did, it doesn't really matter, trick shot would still pull far ahead due to the new 4-pointer trait giving vulnerable 40% more damage bonus, which the meme spec doesn't really benefit from at all in comparison.


    Also, a little thought experiment; If they kept buffing the meme spec equally to the trick shot spec, wouldn't they also be pigeonholing people into having to go with the memespec, because of it having no real downsides (if it got buffed equally to the trick shot spec), while trick shot has the downside of immobility?

    Face the fact that no one class is supposed to be good at everything, but you can still play the way you want without seeing any adverse effects next tier.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2017-03-24 at 12:57 AM.

  4. #44
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Again, this comes down to movement and lining things up. The second we encounter a fight like Spellblade, or even one from HFC, where the tank S key 1 step and the boss jumps around, WB loses its function.
    Trickshot will also only hit other Vulnerable targets, something that will not always reliably be up during add burn phases short of using Sentinel, a 60 second CD that applies Mark every 6 seconds.
    The last part of your post also deals with something I already stated, that if you have the correct legendaries the spec will play that much better, and without it will feel worse and not as rewarding. This also goes to the issue that the tier and buffs are being designed around the idea that every player has these specific legendaries already, something that definitely shouldn't happen (like Blizzqrd tuning mythic bosses around 50-54 traits). Personally, I've been playing since launch (went casual 5 weeks ago) and I'm not a slacker by any means prior to being casual. I have 6 legendaries, only 1 specific to MM with 1 specific to SV (switched specs as casual because why not), with 4 generics. Your example shows exactly why I would be screwed over (in a manner of speaking) and why others would dominate me in progression raids.
    The main point is, buffs are good, but the tier could still be designed around the spec as a whole and not forcing a playstyle for all encounters.
    What you seem to fail to take into account is how ToS is designed. Nighthold bosses have pretty much cleave everywhere occasionally, meanwhile the "roadblock" bosses in ToS probably will be all ST (there are only 2 AoE fights and 1 semi-aoe. The rest are either pure ST or occasionally one priority add). There is no mass AoE.

    So no, in a progression raid you would not be screwed over (I guess you are talking about the belt).
    And no, you won't need the sentinel. Marking is proccing enough already.
    Last edited by mmocbf9015e06e; 2017-03-24 at 01:18 AM.

  5. #45
    Also, something I just realised after getting the belt yesterday -
    chances are that we'll be unable to use the legendary gloves in tomb, because at that point, your choice is:

    new 4 set + old 2 set (trueshot reduction)
    VS
    new 4 set + legendary gloves.

    And I have a hard time believing we'll give up our trueshot reduction (no really tasty trinkets in tomb either so far, making a good convergence very likely to last for the entirety of progress) in favor of the glove bonus. The hunters with belt+boots though (and, potentially, KJ trinket/prydaz for pure singletarget where belt doesn't do shit, just for the stats) will be in a nirvana of happiness.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    First off, expecting specs to maintain their niche through expansion reworks is also asinine. By that logic, Arcane mage shouldn't be able to do any AOE, and just do pure singletarget. Likewise, destro warlocks absolutely demolished AOE in SoO, so they should only be AOE now as well - that was their niche, right? (Meanwhile destro aoe is woefully lacking, in favor of the best 2-target cleave with Havoc).
    The fact that a spec retains that niche is insanely nice, and if people can't play their hunter without having to be 100% mobile, then they might want to go BM,
    because that's the niche it fills. Everything about MM says "sniper", not "jump-and-explode".



    But this is bullshit, you know that right? MM without explosive shot and piercing shot has damn fine AOE damage. Trick shot+Marked shot does exceptionally well on any fight where you REQUIRE burst AOE. I mean fuck, let's go look through the top 5 logs of Spellblade right now, one of the maybe three fights where you can defend the meme-spec choice in mythic as potentially being "better", and the only fight that has any sort of on-demand AOE requirement (the other two fights being Botanist, where meme spec is OK because you lose a lot of benefit from trick shot due to multishotting to put hunters mark on plasma orbs/adds from orbs and getting vuln on ignored targets, and tich where bloods need to die at some points) -
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...translate=true Memespec hunter, 201M boss 132M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done trick shot hunter, 208M boss 111M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done trick shot hunter, 215M boss 144M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done Meme spec hunter, 239M boss 154M ice adds.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done Trick shot hunter, 244M boss 118M ice adds.

    I mean, there's not even a big difference, strictly speaking, between the two performance wise right now in the AOE department - but the meme spec has a clear issue with single target on most encounters (the highest ranked meme-spec hunter on Krosus is Squallne at 21, and there's actually a sidewinders hunter beating him. Fucking asians, man). That being said, even on Tichondrius which is the other "on demand" aoe fight (to burst down bloods), barely anyone is even touching the meme spec. Botanist has a few but trick shot still beats it quite well into the ground, but I can see the point of the memespec if your guildies can't hit the lashers and you have to essentially solo them like this guy:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...translate=true


    So yea, I call utter fucking bullshit to what you're saying. Meme spec shines when the AOE damage isn't actually needed, because it's 100% frontloaded (explo, piercing, a few marked shots and done), but by virtue, you didn't really need to spec into better AOE if things die so quickly that you have to spec into burst-AOE, did you?





    That's bullshit though. It's giving the more difficult spec an advantage because it makes use of aimed shot. You can still play the meme spec next week if you want, but you're just only going to be competitive on AOE damage, and no longer get within 85-90% on single target as well. It's a buff to the single target spec. You can't both have strong AOE, be almost entirely mobile, and do great single target damage - you get to pick 2 of 3. Want AOE+Mobility? Meme. Want AOE+singletarget? Trick shot. Want singletarget+mobility? BM.



    While they could give us buffs for random shit like shooting arcane or marked shots, I fail to see why they should - and even if they did, it doesn't really matter, trick shot would still pull far ahead due to the new 4-pointer trait giving vulnerable 40% more damage bonus, which the meme spec doesn't really benefit from at all in comparison.


    Also, a little thought experiment; If they kept buffing the meme spec equally to the trick shot spec, wouldn't they also be pigeonholing people into having to go with the memespec, because of it having no real downsides (if it got buffed equally to the trick shot spec), while trick shot has the downside of immobility?

    Face the fact that no one class is supposed to be good at everything, but you can still play the way you want without seeing any adverse effects next tier.
    You're calling bullshit to bullshit though. You sit there and say nothing is expected to stay the same xpac to xpac, when it's thrived that way for multiple xpacs. DID I say the change is bad? No, I said that to say you "can't have a class be mobile and have high dps" is technically a bullshit way to explain something when we've had it for years. YOure also right that MM screams sniper, as snipers hit 1 target at a time.
    As I've stated, the main issue is that the tier shoehorns people into 1 build, and that's the major issue with it. You point out the meme build and the main build are close, and that's the point. PEople are playing different builds they prefer and doing equally well, something Blizzard has had a hard time managing, and now going to a cookie cutter build.
    Your final point talks about not buffing anything else about the spec because essentially "fuck anything not ST buff to AiS." Am I understanding that correctly? I never said buff something to make meme better, I said buff things to let people play the way they want. You put some work into showing they aren't that far off, so why limit that into being pigeon holed into the other spec? I also never said 1 class should be good at everything, and even pointed out Blizzard wants to avoid that by making talent choices relevant, something that you yourself try to prove with the Spellblade ranks. Now with the current tier, the choice is taken away by buffing expressly the ST (and possibly cleave as I've pointed out) while throwing the other talent choices out the window.
    You also say a class can't have everything, yet several classes can do just that thru talents depending on the fights, what's wrong with letting Hunters do the same? What's wrong with the idea of being able to spec AoE on a fight and then speccing to ST/Cleave the next, instead of having a tier that forces 1?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    You're calling bullshit to bullshit though. You sit there and say nothing is expected to stay the same xpac to xpac, when it's thrived that way for multiple xpacs. DID I say the change is bad? No, I said that to say you "can't have a class be mobile and have high dps" is technically a bullshit way to explain something when we've had it for years. YOure also right that MM screams sniper, as snipers hit 1 target at a time.
    Elemental shamans and destruction warlocks used to be able to cast their main filler (lightning bolt and incinerate) on the move as well. They're some of the most immobile turrets now. It's quite clear that due to the advantages range has (being able to hit stuff from far away), they don't want them to have the same advantage as melee (DPS while moving). They even cited that as a reason when they nerfed pretty much everyone's mobility.
    MM has also not been mobile at all during WOD at the base level - it was highly immobile in highmaul/BRF, and had a tier bonus augmenting Aimed shot to help mobility in HFC (same as now - just not as massive as "instant cast", rather, it's "20% quicker cast").


    As I've stated, the main issue is that the tier shoehorns people into 1 build, and that's the major issue with it. You point out the meme build and the main build are close, and that's the point. PEople are playing different builds they prefer and doing equally well, something Blizzard has had a hard time managing, and now going to a cookie cutter build.
    Except it really doesn't. You can still play the memespec for pure AOE. The issue is that there won't be a lot of things outside of M+ where that's what you want to play. The issue right now IS that a spec that entirely omits aimed shot is performing almost on-par with a spec that uses it. There needs to be a reward from picking the more "difficult" spec that lowers your mobility - else, as you have said yourself, people are "pigeonholed" into playing only the memespec, because it has no downsides anymore. A buff to the spell that the trick shot build uses the most and the memespec the least is a great way to achieve that. Doesn't mean you can't play your spec, it just means you won't be laughing all the way to the bank. Historically, blizzard hasn't been happy with builds that entirely omits things that they consider part of the "base" toolkit, such as when T90 talents weren't actually worth using at all.


    Your final point talks about not buffing anything else about the spec because essentially "fuck anything not ST buff to AiS." Am I understanding that correctly? I never said buff something to make meme better, I said buff things to let people play the way they want. You put some work into showing they aren't that far off, so why limit that into being pigeon holed into the other spec? I also never said 1 class should be good at everything, and even pointed out Blizzard wants to avoid that by making talent choices relevant, something that you yourself try to prove with the Spellblade ranks. Now with the current tier, the choice is taken away by buffing expressly the ST (and possibly cleave as I've pointed out) while throwing the other talent choices out the window.
    [/QUOTE]

    My last point is that you say if we get a buff to Aimed shot, and thus have to play trick shot you seem to think, and I quote:
    we don't need to be made into Feral Druids and be a 1 trick pony from tier (ST and no AoE and little to no cleave)
    And I want to make sure you understand that this will *never* happen with the current MM. Trick shot and Marked shot is among the top tier AOE across all classes - it's just that explosive+piercing is even stronger in short-term fights, or for burst AOE. Your ability to do burst AOE is not actually nerfed - you will still be the top dog doing it. You just won't also be strong on single target, which you should be OK with, because, and I repeat:

    If the memespec was to get a similiar single target buff as the trick shot spec is, there'd be no other choice than the memespec, because it has no downsides and superior AOE while maintaining high single target. You'd switch to trick shot for the few pure singletarget fights there is, the ones we currently use true aim+crows for to max out our singletarget damage (which this tier is Trilliax, Krosus and Augur). A buff to aimed shot ensures that one spec remains dominant on single target, and no nerf to the meme-spec ensures that it will remain dominant on AOE.


    You also say a class can't have everything, yet several classes can do just that thru talents depending on the fights, what's wrong with letting Hunters do the same? What's wrong with the idea of being able to spec AoE on a fight and then speccing to ST/Cleave the next, instead of having a tier that forces 1?

    First off, you're contradicting yourself. You start out saying "lots of classes can be good through talents depending on the fight", which I take to mean that you're saying "different classes can pick if they want to be better at singletarget or AOE", which is entirely the case, and IS ALSO THE CASE FOR HUNTERS. You can pick if you want to be top tier in single target (Trick shot) or AOE (Meme), which makes your question "what's wrong with letting Hunters do the same?" confuse me A LOT. You can do that. We will do that. It's just that there likely won't be many fights where that'll be what we will do.

    But for shits and giggles,
    Can you tell me which caster that at all times has:
    High mobility.
    Top tier AOE.
    Great single target.

    Melee obviously does not count, because all melee have innate great mobility by virtue of not being able to hit the boss if it moves away (HI ELISANDE!), but even among melee, the only ones that do both great single target and decent AOE or vice versa, off the top of my head, are Demon hunters and frost DKs (if they can manage their paddragon properly) - and even Dhs have to spec to excell at one IIRC.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Meanwhile, in our artifact weapon, we get the most overpowered trait in the game - 10% more vulnerable power per rank. Considering the top ranking MM hunters on a fight like krosus have between 50-60% of their damage from Aimed shot, that means that even in a worst-case scenario, 4x ranks for 40% more vulnerable means that you'll see a 20% increase in aimed shot damage (that assumes that every single one of your aimed shots lands in the last second of vulnerable - realistically, it'll be closer to a 23-25% aimed shot damage gain).

    A 20-25% gain to something that does 50-60% of our damage, means our single target DPS increases by anywhere between 10-15%. Fuck, even our golden trait is ballin'; It takes Windburst from a 800% AP shot to a 2300% AP shot (and 2/3 of it is AOE, instead of right now, where it's pure single target), assuming the tank doesn't move the boss away. Considering Windburst does about 5% of our damage on a single target and the damage of windburst is almost trippled (2300 isn't 2400, QQ) that means we'll see an almost 10% DPS increase from our golden trait as well.


    You know what DHs get in their artifact? -20 cost on eye beam, 20% crit on blade dance (which makes up about 7% of a DH's damage on single target, meaning a 1.4% dps buff), and a golden trait 10% chance for chaos strike to hit again (so a flat 10% buff to chaos strike, essentially), giving about a 3% dps buff.
    I can't speak for how good Eye beam is (it's a pure AOE spell), but I'd say despite Deadly Aim being nerfed we're probably the winners here, getting a good 20-25% DPS buff from filling in our artifact traits.



    Also, keep in mind that we can only assume that the 2 set works like the only other thing that has the same wording - trick shot. Which means that it's not every other aimed shot that's got the reduced cast time and focus cost - it's every aimed shot after our first that gets the buff. This will push aimed shot even FURTHER ahead output-wise. Honestly, I'm genuinely surprised they haven't nerfed a lot of this stuff already, but hey. I'll take it.
    I was not aware of all of the buffs besides the vulnerable, and hopefully you are right about the two set. I guess we're going to be in a better spot than I thought.

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