Top Player Bans

[Deleted]

Knowing that it takes at least 18 (probably more to cater for class stacking) people to do this, 100 EUR (or less) a week per person for that effort you put in actually has my compassion. Even if you said they do this for 20 weeks after progress after having raided 6 hours every day for 14 days, that would come down to an hourly pay of 14 EUR.

€100 per boost per person, with the potential for multiple boosts given geared alts, and a time investment of 2-4 hours per boost is not too shabby for someone who sits on his ass all day to play video games.
Add to that the monthly €1500 they receive from welfare benefits and they have enough income to comfortably leech off society until the rest of their pathetic days.

[WhatIsLegion]

Against the terms.

You can't take real money for anything you do in the game. Not for addons, not for advise, not for help clearing raids or getting PVP ratings, not for items.

Not against the terms at all, coaching isn't done in game.

[c313]

Against the terms.

You can't take real money for anything you do in the game. Not for addons, not for advise, not for help clearing raids or getting PVP ratings, not for items.

Well its a good thing Coaching isn't done in game then.

[Kazuchika]

Against the terms.

You can't take real money for anything you do in the game. Not for addons, not for advise, not for help clearing raids or getting PVP ratings, not for items.

Explain Blizzard having no problem with addon developers like Adam from DBM and Kihra who does WCL having Patreon accounts then.

[Deleted]

Blizzard have formally refused to confirm the reason for the ban in my guild.
They have refused to supply any evidence to support a ban.
They have refused to apologise and remove the ban.

Both myself and Tusn will function just fine without World of Warcraft in our lives, although it would hurt our guild tremendously if we were to stop playing.

Blizzards incompetence is not OK. It could be time to vote with our feet.

Not surprised at all.

[silverstarzs]

Not against the terms at all, coaching isn't done in game.

Interesting thing about the coaching example is that it covers a pretty wide range of activities - some (IMHO) pretty clearly not in game (like log reviews), and some rather more ambiguous whether they are in game or not. Two things I personally have done are (1) watch a client's live stream and give him advice by voice - I would suggest that I am not in game there, so the coaching is not in game at all; but #2 I have also gone on raid with clients and talked them thru the mechanics and movement and preparation for bursts (did this quite a bit for archy mythic) - I honestly dont know if that qualifies and an 'in-game service' or not - I might argue that I am selling knowledge (which is 'out of game') rather than wow items (which are 'in game') . . . . but I would be curious what Bliz would say to all that.

Explain Blizzard having no problem with addon developers like Adam from DBM and Kihra who does WCL having Patreon accounts then.

One of Bliz's problems is that there are terribly inconsistent, capricious & ambiguous on all this. It is like they dont really care but every once in a while someone gets a stick up his ass and flys off the handle with a poorly thought out sanction program. This event, and the prior 'win trading' sanctions (where they banned most of the top of the pvp ladder) seem like Trumps immigration executive orders - eg they do in fact have authority and some justification to take some actions . . . . . but what they actually do is extremely poorly thought out and does not cure the problem, and reflects a very poor understanding how to exercise moral authority or ensure justice.

[cFortyfive]

That is not relevant to this RL money case. There are a very small number of 'sources' of evidence here (unlike in bot detection where there are many many quite different potential ways to detect them). There is no mystical algorithm here - player reports, advertising and chat logs are pretty much it for RL money.

Absolutely. Don't see any good reason to not disclose what particular piece of evidence would have caused the ban should it exist given there is more than enough precedence from bans in the past to know what sources they are getting said evidence from. Even if there was some mystical algorithm involved what kind of evidence would that produce other than what was already mentioned.

I might argue that I am selling knowledge (which is 'out of game') rather than wow items (which are 'in game') . . . . but I would be curious what Bliz would say to all that.

You mean "their" actual thoughts ? If asked now you'd get the usual pr fluff over grey areas and at the point where it would become big enough that tone would obviously change. Coaching was and is a common activity offered in pretty much every Blizzard game ever and as long as you aren't in the raid during the encounter or on the same team in an competitive match it seems quite unlikely they could make up a good enough reason for a ban from that aside from fuck yeah we can ban everyone.

[Tharkkun]

That is not relevant to this RL money case. There are a very small number of 'sources' of evidence here (unlike in bot detection where there are many many quite different potential ways to detect them). There is no mystical algorithm here - player reports, advertising and chat logs are pretty much it for RL money.

No. They can follow the trail outside the game as well. If you're advertising the services in game but then direct someone to a webpage, or 3rd party method of communicating there's no reason why they can't ban the original player in game once you've told them your pricing. At the same time they can track your mac address from the client and determine your other accounts quite easily. It depends on how far Blizzard wants to take this. Coaching on the other hand is a grey area right now. You're not paying for something tangible in game. You're paying for advice or a consultant role. It's not as clear cut as charging for a carry which translates to charging for gear which Blizzard never authorized.

Blizzard has never gone down this path yet so we'll see how serious they are soon enough.

[dictainabox]

You should read eula closely, they are not obliged to apologise or supply any evidence to you, they can just ban you for whatever.

Nowhere in that post did he comment on Blizzard's legal ability to do what they did. His point was that it pissed him off and that he may be left to the only option he really has to deal with the situation: stop giving Blizz his money.

[rda]

The question is whether (or what part of) this is actually considered 'in game'.

[...]

Where is the line with say 'sponsorship'?

There is no hard line.

It's simple. If you are making money off WoW, with rare exceptions for things that they think help promote the game - like web sites - they want you to stop. If you aren't making a lot and are largely quiet, you can absolutely get away with it. But rest assured that they don't want you to make money off their property. If you ever become visible, you will have to stop.

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If we want to go by the letter, the operative item is 2.B.C in the TOU:

"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances: [...] exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Service, for any commercial purpose, including without limitation [...] performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling;"

One may look at that and shout "here! if I do all my 'coaching' out of the game, I am in the clear!!!" - but that's a bit of a corner case and a bit misleading. Yes, if you are careful about not ever doing anything in game, then perhaps they won't get you. But you know why? Because you might not even be their user (so they might not even be able to punish you), and because you are likely small (since you don't do anything in game, so, what's your expertise? why people would pay you money for WoW-related stuff if you aren't playing?). That's it. You can be sure that they won't like you making any money off WoW, so, sure, feel free to try and, as I say, you might even get away with it, but realize that you are going solidly against the grain.

[barackohmama]

There is no hard line.

It's simple. If you are making money off WoW, with rare exceptions for things that they think help promote the game - like web sites - they want you to stop. If you aren't making a lot and are largely quiet, you can absolutely get away with it. But rest assured that they don't want you to make money off their property. If you ever become visible, you will have to stop.

So then every wow streamer on twitch should get banned?

Imo it's like this:

Streaming/coaching etc = not bannable
Selling services that make direct impact ingame like boosting or selling gold = bannable.

[rda]

Explain Blizzard having no problem with addon developers like Adam from DBM and Kihra who does WCL having Patreon accounts then.

That's small.

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So then every wow streamer on twitch should get banned?

They think streamers help promote the game. They fall into the "rare exceptions" in my post.

[Octa]

That's small.

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7+ grand a month isn't small. I'm not saying I disagree with it because I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I actually think it's a good thing because without something like the patreon for WCL we'd probably have a much shitter version of it (WOL) or possibly no WCL at all. There's also nothing wrong with voluntarily supporting things that you enjoy.

The problem is quite simple. Blizz isn't very consistent in anything they do and they have a tendency to swing from 1 extreme to the other while still being inconsistent.

[silverstarzs]

That's small.
. . . . .
They think streamers help promote the game. They fall into the "rare exceptions" in my post.

I 'support' warcraftlogs, AMR, DBM, Curse, Zygor, and until recently Proper Bird (she quit raiding and thus quit doing her boss guides). I personally believe all improve the game.

Bliz has certainly known about and let all these go on for a long time - so there seem to be rather many of your 'rare exceptions'.

The problem is quite simple. Blizz isn't very consistent in anything they do and they have a tendency to swing from 1 extreme to the other while still being inconsistent.

Yes, exactly - combine ambiguous inconsistency with false positives and you do not have a very attractive formula.

As I said above, my personal feeling is that their 'policy' in reality is "we dont really care, unless one of our devs randomly gets a stick up his ass".

[Kennyloggins]

The difference between WCL, streaming, and real money raid sales is pretty obvious, because only one of those is making money directly off services in the game.

I agree with what they clearly want to do, which is curtail the sale of any in-game service for real money. However, what they did literally has not and will not stop anyone. They need to target the most egregious offenders, and hit them with 6 month bans or more. They cannot simply rely on chat logs, they have to investigate off-site resources and beyond. Instead of relying on an algorithm, they need to manually investigate the biggest names behind the biggest cases, and ruthlessly take action against them. Imagine the account of every officer in 50% of top guilds getting banned at once, right before progression--that would send a clearer picture. Maybe if they did that I would feel less seething hatred towards the company for what they did to me and others (for absolutely no reason or effect, I might add).

[Kazuchika]

That's small.

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They think streamers help promote the game. They fall into the "rare exceptions" in my post.

lol "that's small"

More like "Oops someone poked a hole in my flimsy logic so I better move the goalposts"

[rda]

lol "that's small"

More like "Oops someone poked a hole in my flimsy logic so I better move the goalposts"

Just remove "rare exceptions" in my posts and stick to "things that Blizzard think help promote the game".

[Osmeric]

That is not relevant to this RL money case. There are a very small number of 'sources' of evidence here (unlike in bot detection where there are many many quite different potential ways to detect them). There is no mystical algorithm here - player reports, advertising and chat logs are pretty much it for RL money.

Also undercover investigation, either by Blizzard themselves, or by players they hire (or coerce) to act as investigators. This is how drug selling is investigated, quite often, since like paid carries they have to interact with customers.

[arcaneshot]

One of Bliz's problems is that there are terribly inconsistent, capricious & ambiguous on all this.

You didn't explain jack, just went off on an unrelated Checkers Speech rant.