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  1. #21
    Legendary! Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Reminder that in Deadmines we're the bad guys.
    No, we're not the bad guys in Deadmines... unless you're only looking at it through Vanessa Van Cleef's twisted outlook.
    -Harlan Hammerfest, Paladin

    "Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?" - O'brien, from Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four"

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    No, we're not the bad guys in Deadmines... unless you're only looking at it through Vanessa Van Cleef's twisted outlook.
    That we stiffed Vancleef and the rest of the masons from Westfall that rebuilt Stormwind, destroying an entire township in the region, ruining the lives of hundreds, destabilizing the region and forcing them to turn to crime in order to eat? Then we murdered him infront of his daughter for no reason other than to shut him up?

    No, the original sin was Stormwind's. If Stormwind were the good guys they would have paid back the debt. Even if Cata, years later people are starving due to the kingdom's callous behavior. You can't force people into destitution, extreme poverty, destroy their lives, laugh at their misfortune. And then blame them for rebelling against you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    the monk complaint to turnaround cycle takes around 1 expansion, we got rid of mastery this expansion so LC will be reworked in 8.0

  3. #23
    Legendary! Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    That we stiffed Vancleef and the rest of the masons from Westfall...
    "We" didn't stiff anybody. By the time our characters are created Van Cleef and the Defias are already a murdering criminal lot for years. We go in there and eliminate them and their leaders (both times). Regardless of whether they felt cheated or not, they've made their choices and have become evil. We put them down. We're the good guys.

    -Harlan Hammerfest, Paladin

    "Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?" - O'brien, from Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four"

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotomon View Post
    Eh, I guess its like the Garona thing. Still not sure I'd trust Magtha.
    Garona was MC'd by the shadow council though, Magatha is just a cunt all by herself.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    "We" didn't stiff anybody. By the time our characters are created Van Cleef and the Defias are already a murdering criminal lot for years. We go in there and eliminate them and their leaders (both times). Regardless of whether they felt cheated or not, they've made their choices and have become evil. We put them down. We're the good guys.

    We as in the alliance, and we did refuse to pay them, we refused to feed them. Is it any wonder the people of Westfall became impoverished and turned to crime. The original sin was Stormwind's. You cannot criticize a destroyed people's response to tyranny unless you were supporting of that tyranny. After Stormwind's destruction, their actions were wholly evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    the monk complaint to turnaround cycle takes around 1 expansion, we got rid of mastery this expansion so LC will be reworked in 8.0

  6. #26
    Over 9000! FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    But with Vancleef family the Alliance was completely and utterly at fault?

    Reminder that in Deadmines we're the bad guys.
    uhh no were not
    yes not paying them is bad and all
    but causing a riot killing countless people including the queen
    then building a mega ship to destroy stormwind, thousands of innocent lives

    no we are in no fucking way the bad guys
    it is morally gray, but we dident pay them
    they fucking murdered everyone.. and threatened to kill even more...
    also no the alliance as the full did not choose to not pay them
    lady prestor did, and she convinced the council to not pay them, well the rest of the alliance did want to (varian and its people)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    We as in the alliance, and we did refuse to pay them, we refused to feed them. Is it any wonder the people of Westfall became impoverished and turned to crime. The original sin was Stormwind's. You cannot criticize a destroyed people's response to tyranny unless you were supporting of that tyranny. After Stormwind's destruction, their actions were wholly evil.
    In that case, isn't the original sin with Onyxia. I mean, she was manipulating the nobility as Katrana Prestor.

    I mean, it says so in the wiki: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Defias_Brotherhood ; http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Onyxia

    Can you even argue that the original sin was Stormwind's and not the nobility itself? Anyone with even a basic understanding of monarchy should know that no king rules alone. While kings have some power, they are nothing without their nobility, who provide the funding to run a kingdom.

    Moreover, it isn't a 'we' situation for the Alliance. This situation predates the Alliance we have now. The humans of the kingdom of Stormwind were manipulated by a dragon to not pay workers, who has magical means of manipulation, though that might have not been necessary. Said dragon then took on the side of the Defias after the rise of Edwin Vancleef and supports them secretly. Draenei, Dwarves, Night Elves, Worgen and Pandaren are only involved in this arguably through the actions of mercenaries, who you can't attribute a kingdom/state/nation's actions too. (You know, since they're mercenaries.)

    Can you really argue black and white morality here successfully? Because it sure doesn't sound like it to me.

  8. #28
    Legendary! Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    We as in the alliance, and we did refuse to pay them.
    So if I'm playing as a dwarf, night elf, gnome, draenei or worgen, I'm responsible for the Defias? I think not. I don't even think I am if I'm playing as a human... because the Defias became evil murderers and terrorists long before I could do anything about it.
    -Harlan Hammerfest, Paladin

    "Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?" - O'brien, from Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four"

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I don't even think I am if I'm playing as a human... because the Defias became evil murderers and terrorists long before I could do anything about it.
    Well, that's up to debate.

    Can you hold the people that represent a state responsible for actions committed by their forefathers in the name of the very same state?

    Parallels to similiar real life issues are quite numerous and controversial.

  10. #30
    Over 9000! FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesoforte View Post
    In that case, isn't the original sin with Onyxia. I mean, she was manipulating the nobility as Katrana Prestor.

    I mean, it says so in the wiki: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Defias_Brotherhood ; http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Onyxia

    Can you even argue that the original sin was Stormwind's and not the nobility itself? Anyone with even a basic understanding of monarchy should know that no king rules alone. While kings have some power, they are nothing without their nobility, who provide the funding to run a kingdom.

    Moreover, it isn't a 'we' situation for the Alliance. This situation predates the Alliance we have now. The humans of the kingdom of Stormwind were manipulated by a dragon to not pay workers, who has magical means of manipulation, though that might have not been necessary. Said dragon then took on the side of the Defias after the rise of Edwin Vancleef and supports them secretly. Draenei, Dwarves, Night Elves, Worgen and Pandaren are only involved in this arguably through the actions of mercenaries, who you can't attribute a kingdom/state/nation's actions too. (You know, since they're mercenaries.)

    Can you really argue black and white morality here successfully? Because it sure doesn't sound like it to me.
    correct, varian wanted to pay them, but lady prestor convinced the council not to, and all the people of the city suffered, aswell as varian, the one who wanted to pay them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Well, that's up to debate.

    Can you hold the people that represent a state responsible for actions committed by their forefathers in the name of the very same state?

    Parallels to similiar real life issues are quite numerous and controversial.
    i cant tell what size yoru defending, as it could be used on both sides, however on the side of defais, if they just did the riot and left, by not it woudl be whatever that happened

    but they are still going after stormwind, making that ship, so its not like "your fathers hated my fathers" its "your fathers hated my fathers, and you wanna blow me up with a fucking ship so... time to die"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    So if I'm playing as a dwarf, night elf, gnome, draenei or worgen, I'm responsible for the Defias? I think not. I don't even think I am if I'm playing as a human... because the Defias became evil murderers and terrorists long before I could do anything about it.
    even the humans are not respondable for the defais, its lady prestor, and by inclusion the nobles of stormwind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    We as in the alliance, and we did refuse to pay them, we refused to feed them. Is it any wonder the people of Westfall became impoverished and turned to crime. The original sin was Stormwind's. You cannot criticize a destroyed people's response to tyranny unless you were supporting of that tyranny. After Stormwind's destruction, their actions were wholly evil.
    btw no, we did not refuse to pay them, lady prestor did

    so if donald trump said "fuck you russia" and shot putin. do you think ALL OF AMERICA deserves to be murdered?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    That we stiffed Vancleef and the rest of the masons from Westfall that rebuilt Stormwind, destroying an entire township in the region, ruining the lives of hundreds, destabilizing the region and forcing them to turn to crime in order to eat? Then we murdered him infront of his daughter for no reason other than to shut him up?

    No, the original sin was Stormwind's. If Stormwind were the good guys they would have paid back the debt. Even if Cata, years later people are starving due to the kingdom's callous behavior. You can't force people into destitution, extreme poverty, destroy their lives, laugh at their misfortune. And then blame them for rebelling against you.
    i also love how you go "murder him infront of his daughter" we dident know she was watching
    and you say "murder him to shut him up" UHHHH WHAT
    DID YOU MISS THE GIANT FUCKING SHIP THEY WERE MAKING?
    we murdered him to stop from destroying stormwind with the dreadnaught
    if your gunna troll, atleast TRY

    we dident "kill him to shut him up"
    we killed him for this VVVVV

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    we dident "kill him to shut him up"
    we killed him for this VVVVV
    Oppress an entire townfolk until it collapses and it's citizens become starving and impoverished, act surprised when they turn to crime to feed their families, act surprised when they rebel against an tyrannical authority figure that robbed them of everything and made absolutely zero attempt in a decade, even after the Vancleef was murdered to undo the damage that they themselves did.

    To be honest I don't even really care what Vancleef made. Stormwind's behavior towards the people of Westfall (in lore terms) was legitimately evil, and it's further magnified that after Prestor was revealed and Varian retook the throne he did nothing, and it got even worse. I have no sympathy for Stormwind when it comes to their treatment of the people of Westfall, it was almost Forsaken levels of crazy evil behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    the monk complaint to turnaround cycle takes around 1 expansion, we got rid of mastery this expansion so LC will be reworked in 8.0

  12. #32
    Over 9000! FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Oppress an entire townfolk until it collapses and it's citizens become starving and impoverished, act surprised when they turn to crime to feed their families, act surprised when they rebel against an tyrannical authority figure that robbed them of everything and made absolutely zero attempt in a decade, even after the Vancleef was murdered to undo the damage that they themselves did.

    To be honest I don't even really care what Vancleef made. Stormwind's behavior towards the people of Westfall (in lore terms) was legitimately evil, and it's further magnified that after Prestor was revealed and Varian retook the throne he did nothing, and it got even worse. I have no sympathy for Stormwind when it comes to their treatment of the people of Westfall, it was almost Forsaken levels of crazy evil behavior.





    to anyone out there, this is why you
    A. dont listen to Myta
    B. When people tell you something, actually read it
    C. Dont pretend you know the lore, when you dont


    Myta we have told you over and fucking over, varian and stormwinds people wanted them to be paid, it was not as you said

    it was lady prestor convincing the nobles to not pay, this had NOTHING to do with varian, and he did his best to try and convince them to

    again if you dont know anything about the lore, stop trying to act like you do.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    The Rogues have Vanessa Van Cleef. Magatha Grimtotem isn't all that shocking.
    Vanessa isnt responsible for having garrosh as a warchief and everything that happened after that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    The sole reason is basically "Sure, you don't trust me one bit, fair enough, but I'm insanely powerful, have an entire tribe at my side AND the Doomstone... So what do you say?"

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    Why don't you trust Garona? It's not like they've explained her character 10+ times already.
    The Lich King was insanely powerfull, Illidan was insanely powerfull, Deathwing was insanely powerfull, Ragnaros was insanely powerfull, see were they are now, your artifact? yeah sure, i'll take it from you after i piss and shit on your body

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    because shes a insanely strong shaman?
    and the end of the world is upon us?
    also doing the quest that gets you her makes it alittle more explainable
    Thrall was also a insanely strong shaman, that didnt matter at all when he fought Garrosh and he had his Dark Shamans blocking the elements

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post





    to anyone out there, this is why you
    A. dont listen to Myta
    B. When people tell you something, actually read it
    C. Dont pretend you know the lore, when you dont


    Myta we have told you over and fucking over, varian and stormwinds people wanted them to be paid, it was not as you said

    it was lady prestor convincing the nobles to not pay, this had NOTHING to do with varian, and he did his best to try and convince them to

    again if you dont know anything about the lore, stop trying to act like you do.
    Goddamnit FelPlague, stop arguing with people that aren't listening anyways.
    I remember that Lady Prestor was Onyxia (or at least controlled by her), could be wrong about that though, and thats why she INSISTED on them not getting paid for the rebuilding of Stormwind.

    Also I'm PRETTY sure that Stormwind wanted to REBUILD most of Westfall. You can even compare OLD Westfall to Cataclysm Westfall. They wanted to rebuild it one by one, as can be seen by the Questhub.
    Sometimes streaming on Twitch.tv, leave me a follow or a message if you like!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dugraka View Post
    *tips m'fedora*

    M'lady if you would be so kind to slob me knob seeing as I held this door open for you.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    snip
    Don't accuse me of not reading your post when you immediately do the same, and I in my response to you rebutted your Prestor argument by reminding you that Varian was King after Prestor was unmasked, and when the kingdom was no longer being controlled he still did nothing, and as I mentioned the problem of famine and poverty in Westfall got. even. worse.

    All the "He wanted to maybe, years ago" means nothing when as returning king allows the problem to fester and part of the Westfall storyline in Cata is how Stormwind is ignoring their pleas.

    Vanessa didn't just become evil the moment she saw her dad die. She was orphaned and had to be raised by the people of Westfall who she endured and grew up during the poverty and oppression under. It was minimum 10 years between Vanilla and Cata (as Vanessa/Anduin were both kids and grew up to young adults in that time) 10 years of doing absolutely nothing for the people of Westfall he 'tried to help'.
    Last edited by Myta; 2017-03-21 at 02:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    the monk complaint to turnaround cycle takes around 1 expansion, we got rid of mastery this expansion so LC will be reworked in 8.0

  16. #36
    Over 9000! FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    Goddamnit FelPlague, stop arguing with people that aren't listening anyways.
    I remember that Lady Prestor was Onyxia (or at least controlled by her), could be wrong about that though, and thats why she INSISTED on them not getting paid for the rebuilding of Stormwind.

    Also I'm PRETTY sure that Stormwind wanted to REBUILD most of Westfall. You can even compare OLD Westfall to Cataclysm Westfall. They wanted to rebuild it one by one, as can be seen by the Questhub.
    yes you are right, lady prestor was onyxia, and yes she through deciet and trickery convinced the council to not pay the stonemasons, no matter how hard varian tried to get them to, and how much he wanted to ,they overruled him also at myta, as he points out, they started rebuilding westfall

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Don't accuse me of not reading your post when you immediately do the same, and I in my response to you rebutted your Prestor argument by reminding you that Varian was King after Prestor was unmasked, and when the kingdom was no longer being controlled he still did nothing, and as I mentioned the problem of famine and poverty in Westfall got. even. worse.

    All the "He wanted to maybe, years ago" means nothing when as returning king allows the problem to fester and part of the Westfall storyline in Cata is how Stormwind is ignoring their pleas.

    Vanessa didn't just become evil the moment she saw her dad die. She was orphaned and had to be raised by the people of Westfall who she endured and grew up during the poverty and oppression under. It was minimum 10 years between Vanilla and Cata (as Vanessa/Anduin were both kids and grew up to young adults in that time) 10 years of doing absolutely nothing for the people of Westfall he 'tried to help'.
    im just putting you on ignore, this is some of the dumbest shit ive read
    also vanilla to cata is not 10 years it was 3 years
    and westfall cannonicly has been mostly rebuilt by now, just you know the burning legion and the lich king sorta keep ya too busy to do anything else

  17. #37
    i think i will keep rexxar as my bodyguard! true orc shaman ... i wouldn't mind to have garrosh as champion

  18. #38
    Legendary! Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Well, that's up to debate.
    It's not up for debate. The player character is in no way responsible for the creation of the Defias. They are an established presence prior to the player start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    Vanessa isnt responsible for having garrosh as a warchief and everything that happened after that
    Magatha Grimtotem isn't responsible for Garrosh as warchief either.
    -Harlan Hammerfest, Paladin

    "Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?" - O'brien, from Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four"

  19. #39
    Just did the quest chain for the new champion.
    Where is my "execute the old hag" option?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    Magatha Grimtotem isn't responsible for Garrosh as warchief either.
    True, that was Thrall. She was responsible for the death of Carine and Garrosh remaining in power.
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    You don't just buy a site that works just fine with a plan to change everything, it's not worth the hassle, the only major change we could do to boost the traffic is to offer Night Elf porn to the users, and I was told I can't do that.
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