No sense of progression in Nighthold - Preach video

[Orwell7]

With your analogy in this case mythic raiders are getting gear of mythic raid quality at a rate of 27x to 125x the rate of herioc raiders per boss kill. If you dont think the guy doing 20% of the work deserves 5-<1% of the wages then youre kind of a douchebag

What nonsense is this. Mythic raiders should get Mythic raid quality loot. Heroic raiders should get Heroic quality loot with a really really low chance of Mythic quality gear.

And yeah, life is not fair. The "top" of every game - be it football, NBA, you name it - get a MUCH bigger slice of the cake than the average street players.

[Niwes]

It differs by there has not BEEN mythics in the past... its a relatively new thing bro. WoD was the first one to introduce them.
And i guess the armor loot is more boring than we give it credit for... weapon drops were always something to look forward to.

The only boss with a real reward in nighthold mythic is guldan himself, he drops a mount and title and achievement... none of the others really do anything like that. The loot has already been gotten long ago...
Mythic tier sets in WoD looked way cooler and more complex than the other versions... in this tier, not so much... i play a mage and the mythic tier looks exactly the same as the normal tier except a few little details here and there (hoodie for example, then theres pointless scrolls on the pieces)... where as tier 17 for example looks different than the normal version of it, especially shoulders and helmet, the rest is quite similar but the most visual parts are usually the top.

This practice of bad tier sets begun in HFC actually, those look pretty similar to eachother... and in many cases the mythic version looks worse because it feels like it has unnecessary poop on it. *cough druid tier 18 cough*

Cool mythic gear gives us rewards for killing bosses... but once they have no meaning through looking like the ones weve already gotten, it takes away from the reward.

Stats dont really matter... they always change and get replaced... but fashion never goes away!

sorry "bro" but i have absolutelly no clue what in the hell you are talking here.

its obvious (at least for every man and woman with a bit of a brain) that the term "mythics" was used for "hardest difficulty". it doesnt matter if the hardest difficulty is called mythic since the last expansion. before it was called heroic, hard mode or whatever you want. and for op's discussion this doesnt matter. not in the slightest. thats so obvious that i even cant imagine how someone (you) came to an answer like yours, in your first sentence.

about the rest of your post i even will not talk here, because i have absolutelly no clue what the hell are you talking about there and what this should have to do with this discussion. not in the slightest. sorry.

[Grimnakh]

What nonsense is this. Mythic raiders should get Mythic raid quality loot. Heroic raiders should get Heroic quality loot with a really really low chance of Mythic quality gear.

And yeah, life is not fair. The "top" of every game - be it football, NBA, you name it - get a MUCH bigger slice of the cake than the average street players.

Uh my point was they get a much bigger slice already and its fine how it is, whats not fine is whining about people sometimes getting upgraded gear because youre an elitist jerk that already has it really good.

[KaPe]

Uh my point was they get a much bigger slice already and its fine how it is, whats not fine is whining about people sometimes getting upgraded gear because youre an elitist jerk that already has it really good.

The slice is smaller than it ever was, since you can get pretty much the same stuff from just about any other activity, at a fraction of effort. The only thing that even compares to Mythic raiding are Mythic+ at extremely high levels - which are not receiving extra rewards over easier ones - and high end pvp, which has its own gearing issues.

[Moshots]

Just look at how gear progression worked in the past, and how it does now.

Foundry Mythic dropped itemlvl 700, WF 705.
HFC Heroic started at 705, and ended at 710 (ignoring Archimonde at 715)
HFC Mythic started at 715, and ended at 725. (ignoring Archimonde at 730)

Additionally you had the legendary ring as an upgrade every week. Followed by Valor Upgrades up to 4/4 later on.

Nighthold Heroic is 885 to 895 (including Guldan at 895)
Nighthold Mythic is 900 to 910 (including Guldan at 910)
Tomb Heroic will be 900 to 910
Tomb Mythic will be 915 to 925

That's where the issue is. The vast majority of "mythic" guilds, be it now or in the past, relied on the continous gear upgrade to clear the instance. (aka overgearing).
Right now this simple doesn't exist. There will be some improvements with 7.2 and new traits, but given how Tomb gear currently looks, it's very similar to Nighthold.

PTR updated now

Tomb heroic is 915-925
Tomb mythic is 930-940...

Same as Nighthold which on the PTR was equal to EN ilvl untill it was hotfixed in before going live nothing to see here.. Still normal progression

[Deleted]

PTR updated now

Tomb heroic is 915-925
Tomb mythic is 930-940...

Same as Nighthold which on the PTR was equal to EN ilvl untill it was hotfixed in before going live nothing to see here.. Still normal progression

The point is that the heroic loot can now WF/TF more than +5 itemlevels, surpassing mythic level loot. in WoD (and always before), you could never get better loot from a heroic boss than from a mythic boss.

[Moshots]

The point is that the heroic loot can now WF/TF more than +5 itemlevels, surpassing mythic level loot. in WoD (and always before), you could never get better loot from a heroic boss than from a mythic boss.

Oh I don't disagree.... I'm in a top 20 guild ive watched MULTIPLE guilds i have close ties to die... Every 2 days we are trying to recruit someone cause another guild has dropped and were even going down a day because so many people are quitting once guldan dies..... Trust me I understand. This whole game is kinda bad right now. and hopefully 7.2 can save it or 7.3 there won't be any progression raiding guilds left...

You can't give a constant stream of content and also expect people to grind out 20 hours a week outside raid to stay competitive....

[Deleted]

Oh I don't disagree.... I'm in a top 20 guild ive watched MULTIPLE guilds i have close ties to die... Every 2 days we are trying to recruit someone cause another guild has dropped and were even going down a day because so many people are quitting once guldan dies..... Trust me I understand. This whole game is kinda bad right now. and hopefully 7.2 can save it or 7.3 there won't be any progression raiding guilds left...

You can't give a constant stream of content and also expect people to grind out 20 hours a week outside raid to stay competitive....

Yup, completely agree. There was always a point where you could "just" farm the highest difficulty raid content on 1 day/week and be done with the gearing part of the game after putting in hardcore hours for a few weeks (or a medium schedule for a few months). Like, I could even tolerate the AP-grinding if it stayed like it was before the "required AP-curve" flattened out at 35 traits, because up until that point, the grinding you could do only did so much because you needed the next AK-levels to really advance. This seems to be the route they try to get back on.

But if you really care about optimizing your character, the gear alone makes you grind out stupid numbers of M+ in hopes of that 925 Angerboda or 925 CoS/Arcway set. That's just wrong ^^

[shaunika123]

Here comes the "that's where you're wrong kiddo" meme.
Well, maybe 925 is rare, but our normal runs we almost always get a few pieces of 905-910 Mythic level loot.

Check on wowprogress! Elisande M drops 905+ loot. In Exorsus, I've checked the 30 most geared people, and they are all ABOVE 910!
Let's go the other way. The latest guild that killed Trilliax M for the first time already has more than 20 people who are above 900 ilvl.

Mind you, these are all equipped item levels!

For previous exps, the gear dropped by new difficulties was absolutely rewarding without question.
Killing a new boss? At least you got a few new pieces to replace gear from previous tier. +15 item level at least!
Now? 60-70% of the loot is disenchanted on first kills. WHY? If TF is not a common occurence, how do you explain this?

Paragon did H Archimonde at an average of 720 item level, while he dropped 735.
Guldan is defeated at 904 item level, while dropping 905.

Titanforge should be limited. Let everything TF up to the lowest Mythic level gear, so everyone can feel lucky and powerful.
Mythic drops should TF to the limit as of today.

you do realize that the 940 legendaries and generally higher weapon ilvls inflate ilvl way more than titanforging does for the average character right?

Why doesn't he?
Go tell your boss that your colleague is only doing 20% of your job, but you would like him to pay both of you equally.
Please use your basic logic.

actually it's more like this:

the richer you are the more lottery tickets you can buy, but even the poorest guys can luck out and win.

and no an LFR raider is not "getting paid equally"
getting one piece of gear compared to 15 is not equal, in fact it's less than 20%
and to top it off, you as a mythic raider, are not hurt by someone else, whom you probably will never meet, gets a lucky item roll
it wont affect your progression, nor will it affect his really. all it achieves is one random guy having a good day.

and even the ilvl difference between old kills and current kills isnt really about titanforging, it's about being able to get gear from mythic+ for raids. which wasnt an option before.

[Seliar]

you do realize that the 940 legendaries and generally higher weapon ilvls inflate ilvl way more than titanforging does for the average character right?

Absolutly. Assuming you have a 905 ilvl piece in every slot, the 2 legendaries and a 925 ilvl artifact increases you ilvl by 6 with a 2H artifact and 7 with 1H+OH artifact and you are at 911-912 ilvl without any wf/tf pieces.

[coprax]

PTR updated now

Tomb heroic is 915-925
Tomb mythic is 930-940...

Same as Nighthold which on the PTR was equal to EN ilvl untill it was hotfixed in before going live nothing to see here.. Still normal progression

Mid-tier raid and already more than 100 item levels above heroic dungeon loot. 2nd squish incoming next expansion...

[Deleted]

Mid-tier raid and already more than 100 item levels above heroic dungeon loot. 2nd squish incoming next expansion...

All items can go to ilvl 955 afair (legendaries go to 970, weapons even more), so yeah...Its insane that this expansion went from 751ilvl(Highest ilvl dropped by Archimonde+10ilvls upgrade) to 955 epics,970 legendaries, 1000ilvl weapons and its still not over. Titanforge is just bullshit.

[Cromatus]

Preach is a guy completly controlled by his own emotions and his own player-situation. If you wanted an overall look at the game, Preach is the last guy you should go to.

And yet his video got preached (...ok) in another post a week ago discussing the legion burnout

[Deleted]

This game should be based on meritocracy and not luck.

The gap between mythic players and "lesser" players has never been smaller. It should be just as large as the difference in difficulty.

[Riistov]

My preferred commentary format starts with "Sup y'all, it's me, it's ya boi Asmongold"

Ha ha, I totally read it in his voice too.

[Interim]

Thrill of the kill - he dosen't feel that
Loot- he dosen't feel satisfaction in getting it
Achievments - dosen't care for them

...

Why is he playing this game again?

and they say theres no such thing as a dumb question. Momma always told me to think before I spoke.

Time invested? Boredom? Loyalty to guild? Real life friends? A combo of thereof? And that took ~5 seconds off the top of my head. Largely due to those being much of the reason im playing this abysmal expac. Almost summer though ;p 3 more bosses to go. Wait nm, they reset our AP grind and called that content!

good thing we dont "actually" have to raid to have great gear, we can just do ez mode 5 man stuff with rollups that happen 50% of the time.

#offonatangent.

[Grimnakh]

This game should be based on meritocracy and not luck.

The gap between mythic players and "lesser" players has never been smaller. It should be just as large as the difference in difficulty.

The skill gap between the least dedicated and least skilled players and the best ones is granular, and now the rewards are as well, they just brought the rewards in line with what actual meritocracy would demand. You want a binary exclusive system based as much on social barriers as merit. Thats not asking for meritocracy, its asking for more extreme country club WoW.

[Flurryfang]

And yet his video got preached (...ok) in another post a week ago discussing the legion burnout

Just because his video here is kind of bad, does not mean that he can't make a good one Preaches video here is made from a specific point of view and is not objective, and even with his character normally being like this, it does not stop him from making good videos.

Also, this is all my personal opnion and analysis of his work. Other people might think very different, which is proberly why he still has several 100k subs on Youtube.

[Deleted]

The skill gap between the least dedicated and least skilled players and the best ones is granular,

Yeah, sure. Granular differences, sure.

Really hard to spot the differences between people that would not kill a boss in LFR without the heroic/mythic raiders and dedicated M+ playersiin there and people clearing 4+ mythic bosses. Hardly any differences...

That has to be one of the most ridiculous claims I have ever rread here...which is saying a lot.

[Grimnakh]

Yeah, sure. Granular differences, sure.

Really hard to spot the differences between people that would not kill a boss in LFR without the heroic/mythic raiders and dedicated M+ playersiin there and people clearing 4+ mythic bosses. Hardly any differences...

That has to be one of the most ridiculous claims I have ever rread here...which is saying a lot.

Do you not know what granular means?