Mass burnout.

[IceMan1763]

The sad part is the actual content is some of the best I have seen... it is just being buried under horroble systems.

I agree... the game design story of Legion is how a systems team can absolutely ruin an otherwise good xpac.

[RuneDK]

The sad part is the actual content is some of the best I have seen... it is just being buried under horroble systems.

yea i fully agree with this, the expansion minus AP/Legendaries is among the top...but throw those in and the overall experience is pretty middling.

[Shyzhi]

As others have said. A lot of people are burned out farming there 54th trait (People still farm it). Farming it takes a lot out of some people. There is the Switch ofc, Horizon and Mass effect(lol) what is keeping people busy doing other things rather then boring dailys. The pop might come back in a few weeks as people say 7.2 is hitting then so there is somthing some what new to do.

[Deleted]

Every guild is burning out. Not because the game is bad. It's more about doing the same thing over and over again for 10 years.

Ok I guess you could say the nighthold doesn't have any lasting appeal.

[Garybear]

It is a factor but most of legion seems designed to gut raiding... from titanforge to ap to mythic plus grinding...

They have taken out rewards reflecting difficulty and replaced it with time reflecting rewards.

Personally I have felt blizzard only cared about vanilla players until this expansion. I've been the only one out of my friends I got to join in wotlk/mop. They never cared about sinking hours and hours into raiding so they never really had much to do outside of pvp. It is nice that now I actually can have fun playing with them and we can all progress without having to sit down for 4 hours straight or make plans and schedule raids.

[Notdev]

Throw us in the pile of burnt out guilds. Turnover has been extremely high in Legion, and all but 1 player we lost before we fell apart aren't leaving to other guilds.

Legendary system is the number one culprit for this I think, at least for me. They are just huge differences in power between good and bad ones and they can absolutely make or break a character. Not to mention, if you're a serious progression-oriented raider that wants to get the best out of their class, you want to keep doing what you can to get legendaries until you get the right ones. For me, that means every second I spend on an alt means time I'm not spending getting legendaries on my main.

[Deleted]

I play way less now.

I used to do like 30~ m+ dungeons a week and now it is down to 2-3.

3 raids a week. 2-3 m+ dungeons a week. emissary if I feel like it.

Currently there is no progress. Neither raid nor my gear. AP traits have been at 54 for months now.

I am burnt out and taking it slow now. Doing something besides WoW so that I have fun with 7.2 when it comes out.

Currently there is literally zero progress because of RNG

[DeltrusDisc]

I was done midway through Emerald Nightmare.

Not sure how people could stand that crap for so long before Nighthold. Nighthold would have held my interest but it was too late. It wasn't too little, not by any stretch of the imagination, from what I've heard, but it was too late.

[Marrilaife]

people still fail to realize that titanforged is not in the game to be something you're purposely trying to get. It's in there so someone who's a mythic raider can do heroic with a friend and still potentially get an upgrade, it's there for guilds farming mythic for 4+ months to still get upgrades by farming said content. It's not there however to focus on getting, since it's completely random. TF/WF is not the problem with gearing, it's people with your mentality that are the problem.

People don't realize the problem with titanforged isn't that everyone wants to get full 925 but they can't.

The problem with titanforged is people enter mythic NH with already 900+ ilvl which means there is absolutely no sense of character power progression as you kill the bosses, because they drop 900-905 items that are barely an upgrade, if at all.

After several weeks of farming hc and early mythic you get stuck on some boss, for some guilds it's Krosus, for some other it's Star Augur, and you know you can't really count on "getting more gear" to beat them. If your guild isn't good enough to beat those bosses now, probably won't be in a month either, if you have maxed artifacts etc., you can't do much except 1) wait for nerfs (boredom and demoralizing) 2) spam endless m+ and pray for high titanforged (factor of burnout).

In the past you were farming first half of the raid with reasonable hope this extra gear will make your characters more powerful, farm bossses easier and faster, and progression bosses taking less wipes to down.

Gear is both a reward and a tool for the job, if people don't get gear upgrades they feel ill equipped and not much incentivized to continue.

[KaPe]

Every guild is burning out. Not because the game is bad. It's more about doing the same thing over and over again for 10 years.

Ok I guess you could say the nighthold doesn't have any lasting appeal.

It's never been this bad. We complained about dailies in MoP, but they ended pretty quickly. AP farming, however, went for several months, has a brief pause now - assuming you're not interested in maxing other specs - and will resume in couple weeks. I was fine with some heavy farming for short time after major patches. Cap some important reputation, get some Valor points, maybe some important quests. But it didn't take months, was never supposed to be infinite and, in case of gear, didn't have so much luck attached to it.

Game being old is certainly a factor, but Legion introduced some major changes, not all of which worked well.

[Osmeric]

I think their idea to abondon small raids like kara

Kara is rather large. Do you mean 10 man? They have flexible mode for that.

[Deleted]

Many of the MYTHIC NH bosses are tuned around 54 traits.

Says who? We are 6/10 M and still have 8 people at 38 to 50 traits. Which i find ridicilous low at this moment, but well.

The bosses arent so difficult. Even Krosus is already killed with 45 sec left to enrage. Every guild who kills Krosus with 45 sec left would kill it in theory with 35 traits...

It's mostly "bad execution". Bad damage dealers dealing not enough damage because of bad execution or too many adds spawning. Last mythic Krosus kill, we had 12 adds. 12!!!!!

In the first weeks, our kills had 18-20. And no, it's the same amount of add waves. We just got a lot better at soaking those adds... and yes, we had some problems too. We've been leveling up and gearing some guys. Currently we have 2 people with their main htting 110 4 weeks ago. They didnt know mechanics of EN or NH, we just geared them and helped them whereever we can. One of them already killed 4 of our 6 mythic bosses, the other 5.

It's all possible.

- - - Updated - - -

It's never been this bad. We complained about dailies in MoP, but they ended pretty quickly. AP farming, however, went for several months, has a brief pause now - assuming you're not interested in maxing other specs - and will resume in couple weeks. I was fine with some heavy farming for short time after major patches. Cap some important reputation, get some Valor points, maybe some important quests. But it didn't take months, was never supposed to be infinite and, in case of gear, didn't have so much luck attached to it.

Game being old is certainly a factor, but Legion introduced some major changes, not all of which worked well.

And others people hated when they couldnt use their AP for their main spec. For them it was really bad that they couldnt spend their AP...

And your point isn't really valid. The new 50 traits race will be extremely slow (because you need new ranks of artifact knowledge to achieve it) and the increase above rank 1 is really only minimal. You just get 200 main stat for a short period, wow. That doesn't scale like the current 35 to 55 traits. So power increase will be minimal after you get those first traits.

Of course: Guild leaders telling their raiders they HAVE to grind is the real problem. But nonetheless, our GM never asked this. He was always very careful about that.

[Deleted]

From a different perspective we are no longer constrained to follow a railroaded path.

On the contrary. We are more constricted to railroad path than ever, especially with all the class order stuff. You can only choose the order of the zones, but beyond that, it's all precisely the same again. Plus if you want the ilvl 840 starter armor set, you need to grind the same rep with each faction again.

We are free to decide how much effort to put and when and the game will reward us accordingly.

That argument is utter, complete and absolute bullshit when it comes to RNG. RNG is still RNG and doesn't care about your effort. You can grind 1000 years and get nothing, or get what you want on the first go. That's not "freedom"; that's nothing but shit to screw players up.

This system is great for people who are able to manage themselves.

Bullshit as well. Back in the days there was a weekly cap on dungeon tokens. You were able to do the whole week's dungeons in one day, if you wanted to, or casually over the week. THAT was freedom. THAT was great for people who were able to manage themselves.

Then Blizz made a dick move and nerfed it by making only the day's first dungeon give tokens, shitting on people who weren't able to play every day (many worked during weekdays but played enthusiastically during weekends) but were willing to go through the effort when they had the time to do so. That dickness continues to the power of 10 in Legion.

[RuneDK]

People don't realize the problem with titanforged isn't that everyone wants to get full 925 but they can't.

The problem with titanforged is people enter mythic NH with already 900+ ilvl which means there is absolutely no sense of character power progression as you kill the bosses, because they drop 900-905 items that are barely an upgrade, if at all.

After several weeks of farming hc and early mythic you get stuck on some boss, for some guilds it's Krosus, for some other it's Star Augur, and you know you can't really count on "getting more gear" to beat them. If your guild isn't good enough to beat those bosses now, probably won't be in a month either, if you have maxed artifacts etc., you can't do much except 1) wait for nerfs (boredom and demoralizing) 2) spam endless m+ and pray for high titanforged (factor of burnout).

In the past you were farming first half of the raid with reasonable hope this extra gear will make your characters more powerful, farm bossses easier and faster, and progression bosses taking less wipes to down.

Gear is both a reward and a tool for the job, if people don't get gear upgrades they feel ill equipped and not much incentivized to continue.

Everything you just said is not a titanforge problem. It's a mythic+ dungeon problem. You should only be able to do x amount a week for gear rewards. Plus the cache at the beginning of the following week. After that x amount it should literally be for AP only or for improving your weekly cache. However again, that's not the problem of titanforge itself.

[oraz4000]

Can you link your logs?

This will be good

[Marrilaife]

Everything you just said is not a titanforge problem. It's a mythic+ dungeon problem. You should only be able to do x amount a week for gear rewards. Plus the cache at the beginning of the following week. After that x amount it should literally be for AP only or for improving your weekly cache. However again, that's not the problem of titanforge itself.

It is a titanforge problem. Without titanforge, people wouldn't be 900+ so early, they wouldn't farm m+ after they got 885 ilvl (which is the best baseline drop from m+ without titanforge), they would get the same from hc NH without titanforge as well.

Blizzard tuned EN around the old premise, that you'll have gear from hc when you go to mythic. But people had way more ilvl than the baseline hc dropped. So the instance proved "too easy". Since then, Blizzard upped the tuning and the problem I described appeared. People hit some form of softcap of diminishing returns on gear very early, therefore the gearing process is distorted.

Without titanforge, the ilvl you can gear up to quickly would be lower, and the best rewards would be paced over longer course of time, the weekly m+ chest and the mythic raid lockout would be slow but steady source of top ilvl gear, so over months of a tier people would see steady increase of power of their toons.

It's a combined factor of m+ being spammable with no lockouts, caps or diminishing returns AND the ability of that gear to upgrade significantly beyond the base ilvl. Without one or another the issue wouldn't arise.

And yes, I know gearing process always had some form of diminishing returns curve, you got the most gear at start when your gear was poor and then you were getting upgrades slower. But the current system turned that thing up to 11.

[spiritsurge]

I got burned out specifically on my main and raiding in general. I just don't know what to do in Legion anymore, I could do Mythic+ but I don't care about the gear and getting into most high level key groups requires the stupid +15 achievement which I don't have yet because basically every group +12 or higher is requiring that achievement for some reason.

I could grind AP for the remaining 4 paragon traits I don't have but....why bother? 7.2 is coming soon and that's going to be an even bigger grind. I've just been playing my Alts for the last few weeks.

I just don't know what else to do.

[GreenJesus]

Just until a few weeks ago I did mythic+ carries with guild, did several 12-15 keys, did dailies, etc, but now that I am at 52 traits with only a difference of 1% left, got a BiS legendary finally, gear upgrades are either .001% titanforge or a side-grade it isn't really worth my time anymore. I have been playing Witcher 3 and am having a load of fun. Now I just log in for raid time, do a +15 on tuesday with guild after raid.

[Mlz]

I got burned out specifically on my main and raiding in general. I just don't know what to do in Legion anymore, I could do Mythic+ but I don't care about the gear and getting into most high level key groups requires the stupid +15 achievement which I don't have yet because basically every group +12 or higher is requiring that achievement for some reason.

Push your own key and only take people without the achi.

[Hctaz]

Mythic raiding is designed for the top 1-2% of people who are prepared to put in the most time and effort to beat the content. If it wasn't these things you were sinking your time and effort into doing, it would be something else because if you weren't there would be other people who would be, and the content would be targetted at them, thus out of reach for you.

Except you're kinda wrong. The original design goal for the heroic content (now renamed Mythic since WoD) was for the players who put above average effort into the game. I've been raiding that content since Heroic ICC, downing most or all bosses while they remained relevant since then. I know what the top 1-2% raiding was like and it was NOT like this. The extra effort put into the game was relegated mostly to research and sims. I would spend like 1-2 hours every night after raid going over logs, looking at where I was less than optimal, and simming potential item upgrades until I got BiS. That was the extent of the effort it took to really be a feasible high end raider. You pretty much received everything required in game from raiding itself and anything outside of the raid was usually not mandatory... except MoP release dailies. Fuck that noise.

The point is that the time and effort required to beat mythic raiding consisted SOLELY of mythic raiding and character optimization through simcrafting. It didn't include farming dungeons for 8 hours a day to max out your stupid artifact to 54 traits or farm endlessly for possible BiS trinket titanforge pieces of gear to round out your already impressive collection of epics. The gear you needed to raid came from the raid. This whole system of alternative progression being tied together with mythic raiding is causing massive burn out because the raider nerds are still being forced to put in all of the effort that we previously had to, but now we're also forced to farm and play the actual game more than we would honestly enjoy. Raiding for 30 hours a week is fine... but anything else in the game we don't really find interesting usually.