Mass burnout.

[dacoolist]

First of all forgive me for my english. I am a guild master of one semihardcore guild. I am following MMO everyday but i decided to sign up for this post.

We started to Legion 25 man. It was fine at start 20+5 man for mythic raiding and we recruited 8-9 people since legion start for raiding. Nobody left our guild nobody kicked they are all our friends but we are not able to mythic raid anymore because we can make it to 20. I have to push people to make it 18-17 so we can find some pugs from our server. People are just quitting the game because they don't like it they don't wanna play it anymore. I have my reasons for that.

1) Grind system for AP farm ( even worse now with nethershards)
2) Unjust Legendary system.
3) Unlogical changes for specs and classes.

I wanna talk about them some. This whole system is making this game RNG base. Years ago even in Pandaria we always we heard this questions. '' What is the best class'' , ''What is the best spec'' and we were answering these questions like '' There is no best class or spec there are best players always''. I can say honestly we can't answer these questions like before. We must say to these people '' Pray for bis legendary, grind your ap and pray to blizzard for like your spec''

I just wanna give an example for unjust legendary system. I have 3 balance druid in my guild. One of them really good and hardcore. One of them is really between social and raider ranks. One of them is social. After legion start our social balance dropped his legendary ring. He was the first person who got legendary at our guild. Our midcore balance druid just dropped his ring yesterday. Our hardcore balance player has 7 legendary he is farming like a hell. He is doing everything he can but still don't have it. Ofc he will drop it oneday but someonca can tell me where the hell is the justice for these months he spend?

At the end. There are a lot of people tired of this nonrewarding and unjust system. They just don't wanna see idiotic drops from LFR which they can't drop from mythic. Bis legendary drops to casuals which hardcores not got it and accept it sometimes really good but %90 idiotic class+spec changes...

Actually fault is ours because we are still playing... We should quit like them if we are not happy...

Welcome to MMO-C.com

I agree with your points, and I know blizz is trying to mend the issues they've created from the beginning, and I hope folks really get what they want now that the patch hit and somewhat addressed a little bit of what you mentioned in your post.

I think the burnout is just happening to a LOT of the playerbase, even the PVP'ers which are really trying to get all the wins in with these super short seasons, and little to no people to play with.

[Deleted]

People don't understand that for a lot of players we play the game to compete. I have played since Vanilla and I do not and never have cared even remotely about the lore, achievements, pets, or anything else. Blizzard puts them in the game because people like them so great but I will never do any of this content.

The ONLY thing that keeps me playing is high end PvE and PvP competition. And yes, it is still a competition when you aren't in Method and have 0% chance of world first. I do have a job and can not play 7 days, but I am still in the highest level of guild I can be with the time commitment I want to make which is Top 25 world. At this level of play the AP grind is mandatory, it simply has to be or you will not be competitive with other guilds at this level.

Regardless of any of that, even if for some reason I was raiding in a casual guild I would still feel obligated to do the AP grind. Trying to play as well as I possibly can and get every .01% performance out of my character in raid is what makes this game enjoyable. Doing this for multiple classes is what keeps highend raiding fun for me.

So yeah, this whole argument doesn't work for some of us. To play the game the way that we enjoy it we have to go crazy grinding with the way Legion has been implemented. If you can raid in a casual guild and have fun just seeing the content, being social, doing pet battles or whatever else then great but for me its either push and compete as much as I can or quit the game.

Just thought I'd try to shed some light, there actually are people that enjoy competitive PvE outside of the top 5 world guilds. And guilds at my raiding level have been dying at an absurd rate this expansion. I'm someone that doesn't guild hop and raided in 2 guilds total for like 9 years before Legion, I've been in three different guilds in the past 5 months because higher end raiders are quitting the game at a very high rate.

To give Blizzard some credit the legendary issue which was even worse than AP for the past two tiers is at least mostly fixed now. Most of us have played enough to have 8+ for primary spec and the balance is reasonable now, and the spec specific change was very good. It should have been like this from launch though, and pure classes still get completely fucked on AP for no reason. There is literally 0 reason that AP couldn't be shared between specs.

Yes, we know this is not expansion for raid-loggers.
You had WoD for that.
Yes, MoP also wasnt raid-loggers expansion for dailies.
Next one should be ideal for you.
Cant have all things all the time.

Being in world 25 guild, you belong to very tiny minority and you cant expect Blizzard will always cater to you at expense of huge majority.
I was in similar position as you are now during MoP, so I stepped down from highest raiding and gone casual. There is fun also, you know.

[Deleted]

This patch turned mythic raiding into a full time job. I'm playing 6+ hours a day and feel like im falling behind.

You can go to vacation and come back at ak38 and you will easily catch up to your 52th trait before ToS opens. Farming 905/910 ilvl gear out of M+ makes also no sense. Its way to rare and its replaced immediatly if the new ilvl cap rises with ToS.

[Requimortem]

while everyone else is burning out my casual guild finally cleared nh on heroic
play this game in moderation and have fun with your friends
if you treat this game like a job you will hate it

Except you literally can not, not treat it like a job. I've played numerous MMOs over the years and I've always known they were about the "grind" which is fine but Blizzard has taken that to the extreme, added a time limit to it and have continuously made incomprehensibly moronic decisions regarding development of this expansion. Everyone hates on Warlords of Draenor but for all its problems, at least I had the option of doing something other than repeating the same handful of quests every day within a certain span of time.

[Grimnakh]

But I am honest... where is the fun when you have take your preformance seriously and someone in the casual guild says.. fuck it.. its causal..
A game should not feel like a job... that where you are 100% right.. but when you want to raid mythic on a more or less competitive level it gets like a job.
As an example: I love mythic raiding but my job "forces" me to work 70h+ a week (and its fun for me)... therefore I don`t have the time to grind AP like nothing else... this takes away the fun for me.... however I still want to raid mythic.. so what do I do? Farm AP next as much as I can...
Is this the purpose of a game? not really

I would suggest to your raid group that you cut raid time so people can do the easy AP stuff every week, if people are failing on bosses and missing traits the guild will have more benefit from that than wiping on the same boss for 20 more hours. Its not Blizz's fault youre taking a less efficient approach to the content. 50 hours a week of raiding should be plenty, after that you should be competing for world first and if you are thats your choice to be trying to be the best of the best, which requires the highest effort and ability.

[RuneDK]

But I am honest... where is the fun when you have take your preformance seriously and someone in the casual guild says.. fuck it.. its causal..
A game should not feel like a job... that where you are 100% right.. but when you want to raid mythic on a more or less competitive level it gets like a job.
As an example: I love mythic raiding but my job "forces" me to work 70h+ a week (and its fun for me)... therefore I don`t have the time to grind AP like nothing else... this takes away the fun for me.... however I still want to raid mythic.. so what do I do? Farm AP next as much as I can...
Is this the purpose of a game? not really

Well, you don't HAVE to do grind AP....for once I feel like I can do the content I feel like doing and be rewarded enough to not feel like I'm missing out cause I didn't get my WQs done or enough M+ done. Also you need to remember, just getting to 36 traits is what mythic nighthold is tuned for...anything higher is gravy. People were killing farm bosses over a minute faster post 7.2 due to the extra traits. as everyone gets the additional ones before TOS, NH will continue to get easier and easier. However, the goal should be to have concordance(51st trait?) by TOS, not right now.

[DevilsAdvocate]

You know, lots of people pointed out how horrible Legion would be with the grind. LOTS of people. They were all shouted down by the hardcore crew of players who hated WOD for being too "casual." Well the grind in WOW is so bad not even the previous hardcore can keep up anymore. The main problem with WOD was really a lack of content and not garrisons. If it had the exact same systems in place (No AP, and no Legendaries) but had the fast clip of content that Legion does (Raids released quickly like with Trial of Valor, mythic+ dungeons), nobody would have complained. And WOD raids have been better than any nighthold raid released in terms of mechanics.

The good things about legion came from them completely abandoning WOD putting extra resources into Legion development. WOD had 2 tiers of content and the same dungeons throughout the expansion. They pilfered WOD development to make it seem like Legion has a lot of content. Now that wave has run its course and the pace of content is slow again (time between Nighthold and TOS is same as BRF and HFC); the game looks pretty bad. There's some good elements like Mythic+ and some more world content and pvp variety; but the AP grind and Legendary grind is as bad as it's ever been and only getting worse. Nobody wants to grind world quests or the same mythic+ dungeons anymore at this point and that's basically all the world content blizzard's given us to tide a depleted player base until TOS comes out. Even Tannan Isles 2.0 is horrible now that everyone has already burnt out on WQ.

The systems put into this game were created by a cynical developer who was given one order by Activision "Get the subscribers back up or you're fired." They created a horrible, grindy system meant to chew up players with poor time management skills and poor impulse control. This game is absolutely horrible right now and you should't give blizzard your money. I wouldn't be surprised if subscriptions collapse to an even lower level than WOD at this point. I would love to see all the people who Diablo-fied this game go. Just create faster content (a new raid every 4 months; new dungeons and pvp maps at the same time) and don't waste our time with this legendary/AP nonsense bullsh*t PLEASE.

[Hysteria]

i mean am playing 24/7 , for geting +1 trait , the worst part is when my spec get nerfed , and other buffed so i have to farm other ,,, !

[Zantos]

This is the first expansion I actually quit. I just couldn't do it. WoD had next to nothing to do and it was boring. Legion tried to remedy that, but did it in the Worst way possible. They gave us tons and tons of grinds. Grind for this, Grind for that. None of its fun. Its long. Its boring. Its crap. Most of the world quests are just the same thing we already did While leveling. The AP grind is just insane. People say (you don't have to). If you raid yes, you do if you dont want to suck or be benched.

In short, I can easily see why people get burned out. Its just that this expansion is one big grind fest.

[bledgor]

All these people complaining about having to grind AP for traits, fucking LOL. You are significantly stronger post patch than prepatch, the issue isnt you having to grind AP, AP is literally a way for you complete raids when you/your guild isnt good enough. Also lol I work 40 hours a week and I still have 43 traits, you just need to do your shit right, hold caches when you are within 2 days of AK, save class missions for AP till the night before if possible to get the bonus AP.

As for "grinding AP" I only do big daily AP WQ (above 500k), a quick BG and LFD. When you have more time try to get normal/heroic NH in (during the weekend is good), and any RBG you can (2 million a pop). Try to do the new dailies on the Island for the supplies, cause 100 supplies = another ~500k AP as well.

Just realize you aren't supposed to grind traits, blizzard is actively trying to stop you from grinding traits with the new scaling, wait for your AK and pace yourself. Farming from 45 to 47 isnt going to get you that next mythic kill, good play is.

[melodramocracy]

I don't mind the AP grind itself, it's just not incredibly compelling for me to focus on as a main activity. 7.2 so far has been less entertaining than I'd hoped it would be. While the invasions themselves are fairly entertaining with the end scenario, Broken Shore itself is pretty bare-bones in comparison to prior playground zones that have come out (TI, TJ, etc), and has it's own little problems, including tagging still being an issue.

The new dungeon has a nice layout, but isn't something I see myself looking forward to visiting a high number of times. I've had more than enough of mythic + content, and have simply stopped doing it. Rushing through Kara sort of makes the place lose it's cool factor, so that isn't something I'll bother with either.


Eh, I'll continue logging in for raid night, but my gametime outside of that will continue to stay pretty low.

[Zelorra]

It's not only burnout. It's the realization that there's no closure, no achievable BiS, only an eternal grind and and epic RNG shitfest. They realized they're now playing fucking Diablo.

[Daffan]

It's not only burnout. It's the realization that there's no closure, no achievable BiS, only an eternal grind and and epic RNG shitfest. They realized they're now playing fucking Diablo.

Add on top of that, every patch is a reset for majority of players (The average, casual players). You can get AP 10x faster, gear 10x faster every patch. Why even bother unless your a slave to the grind and like numbers going up, doing the same thing over and over for redundant rewards.

[Qck]

It's not only burnout. It's the realization that there's no closure, no achievable BiS, only an eternal grind and and epic RNG shitfest. They realized they're now playing fucking Diablo.

Amen. People praised the Diablo team coming on board D3, pity they brought and doubled down on some of the worst parts.
AP AKA Paragon XP, WF/TF AKA Ancients/Primals and then the whole farm and hope for RNG aspect of Legendaries.

The WQ's AKA Bounties and Mythic+ AKA Greater Rifts were fine additions. The other shit? Not something WoW needed.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Been enjoying WoW in moderation since launch. I've observed that it feels grindy when you're pressured to do it, be it on your own or by your peers.
Put yourself in an environment where you're comfortable with your intended goals and playstyle, and a lot of these complaints go away. I'm not kidding myself though. The guild atmosphere I enforce is more the exception than the rule.

[Marrilaife]

Put yourself in an environment where you're comfortable with your intended goals and playstyle, and a lot of these complaints go away.

Yes, it's easy to say this, especially from people who don't face artificial obstacles to their intended goals that didn't exist in the past. My intended goal is to clear mythic raid before the new one comes, I don't care to race against the clock and reach world top ranks, but would like to clear, or if really not possible, get as close as I can to the last mythic boss in the raid before the next raid comes over.

And to achieve that goal without nolifing, boring grinds and generally through testing my skill and not /played. These days it's very hard to find a guild that will be able to accomplish that set goal without facing problems with burnout, peer pressure, disparities between nolifer and raidlogger factions within the guild etc. etc. These are artificial hurdles thrown at the mythic non-cutting-edge-hardcore scene.

And Blizzard just loves to screw over that portion of the playerbase. Who suffered the most from forced 20 man mythic and the end of MOP? Exactly this bracket, not hc guilds who can use flex scaling, not world top hardcore guilds that always have queue of applicants lined up.

7.2 artifact "soft reset" / catch-up was actually a god-send for guilds like mine and the other 3-7/10 mythic guilds out there. These guilds usually struggle the most against roster boss and the biggest problem was pre-7.2 the recruitment pool was very limited to the people that are already 50+ traits, and not already in another guild. The amount of guilds that "called it" mid mythic Nighthold progression was outright terrifying, I'm on one of the bigger EU servers and between December and March at least 30% of the mythic guilds folded, few more survived but struggled a lot, I won't be surprised if few more fall down before TOS.

It's a really bad feeling. I might be able to pace myself, but can't do much about people around me, and if guilds are disbanding left and right you have this dreadful feeling if it hits yours, you have nowhere to go, because the choices are shrinking every week. People aren't water that you can easily pour from one container to another and everything is fine. If half the players quit in 2 guilds, the remnants who want to continue don't automatically mesh together to form 1 guild.

P.S. I really hope Blizzard delivers on their promise to fix the Artifact issue going into TOS, having a situation like "this recruit looks promising, but he won't be raid-ready in the next 10 weeks unless he nolife grinds" sucks.

Atm it looks kinda fine-ish, as we progress through 7.2 and get more AK people will cherry pick the best traits so the dude ahead of him will only have a couple of the weaker traits they left for later. But alas, the NH problem didn't became apparent until it was already well underway.

I want to stay hopeful that in TOS my guild can actually concentrate on figuring tactics for bosses instead of figuring how to patch the gaps in roster when the amount of roaming around suitable candidates is minuscule due to traits.

[Sigxy]

Yeah, same thing in my guild. It happens people might disappear for a little bit but not as bad as this - even our 9th anniversary celebration (something we do each year) for the guild only had 3 people around for it this year, I'm hoping it'll be better for the 10th. ;_:

[Deleted]

Nah still going strong, so is majority of my guild.

[xalai]

It's not only burnout. It's the realization that there's no closure, no achievable BiS, only an eternal grind and and epic RNG shitfest. They realized they're now playing fucking Diablo.

this is so true

[Grimnakh]

It's not only burnout. It's the realization that there's no closure, no achievable BiS, only an eternal grind and and epic RNG shitfest. They realized they're now playing fucking Diablo.

Personally i find the "RNG shitfest" to be one of the best things about the expansion. I dont want to be able to get all the bis gear for current content, thats so boring. The only problems with it are unbalanced trinkets, legendaries and secondary stats for certain specs.