Is sub fun in Legion?

[Beingbob]

I'm maining WW but looking to reroll for 7.2 as I don't like the direction the spec is going (more resource starved). I've played my 90ish sub rogue a bit recently, and it's fun: it feels like I have a lot of energy/cp to play with, the animations are cool, seems there's some depth, and rogue is a bit appealing as it's pretty much the only melee that's desired by guilds/raids. On the other hand, Outlaw is the least appealing spec in the game to me (rng) and Assassination seems very energy starved and kinda simple.

I haven't heard much of sub in Legion, Preach gave it a pretty negative preview and most of the sub rogue stuff on youtube seems to be PvP-oriented. Is it fun? Are sub players happy? And very important to me; are there any big frustrations with the spec? For example, as a WW, sometimes our clones don't copy our big spenders and we do less dps than we would normally despite using CDs which is incredibly frustrating.

[jtstormrage]

Personally I don't like short buffs and short cooldowns. This is why I don't like sub or Warrior.

However, it looks fun and I suspect it will be strong in 7.2. The tier looks strong for sub.

[elfporn]

Yes, it's fun, outlaw is fun too. Ass is a very low apm dot spec, less fun. My op

[permp]

If you have the right legendarys is a cool spec to play.

BUT without the shoulder and boots for raid is pretty bad.

[Tuskchi]

Since I made the switch recently ( was WW main at start of Legion ) ... Let me put it straight energy starved doesn't necessrly mean low APM ...

At my ilvl (880) without any DPS legendary (just sephuz and combat boots), I'd say that sub is more energy-starved than sin ... in Sin the regen is better and you are pressing keys very often (high apm) although the rotation itself isn't complicated ( bleed is a bit more exciting than poison build ).

Sub on the other hand is ... well, I'm playing with DS (which is more difficult than Anticipation ) and while I'm not exactly AFKing, due to the highest cost on the CP builder ( Shadowstrike) there is more downtime between CP building and spamming the Evi ( Rupture, or Nightblade as it is called is only 25 energy but u refresh it, not spam it ) ... Also with DS u have to swallow the fact that u will not very often be casting finishers at 6 CP ... because according to guides at 5 CP u cast finishers, or u waste DPS because of CP build and energy cost.

[elfporn]

Since I made the switch recently ( was WW main at start of Legion ) ... Let me put it straight energy starved doesn't necessrly mean low APM ...

At my ilvl (880) without any DPS legendary (just sephuz and combat boots), I'd say that sub is more energy-starved than sin ... in Sin the regen is better and you are pressing keys very often (high apm) although the rotation itself isn't complicated ( bleed is a bit more exciting than poison build ).

Sub on the other hand is ... well, I'm playing with DS (which is more difficult than Anticipation ) and while I'm not exactly AFKing, due to the highest cost on the CP builder ( Shadowstrike) there is more downtime between CP building and spamming the Evi ( Rupture, or Nightblade as it is called is only 25 energy but u refresh it, not spam it ) ... Also with DS u have to swallow the fact that u will not very often be casting finishers at 6 CP ... because according to guides at 5 CP u cast finishers, or u waste DPS because of CP build and energy cost.

Apm on ass is something around 35.... Sub is absolutely much higher. Youre doing somthing wrong if youre starved of energy as sub.

Even using dfa im not starved, where in ass im regularly doing a cycle where i starve out, then wait a noticable while doing nothing before doing the cycle again.

[Tuskchi]

I think u talk about something else ... Sub has faster CDs to manage, but that doesn't mean that Sin is more "energy starved" because of slower CDs ...

[elfporn]

I think u talk about something else ... Sub has faster CDs to manage, but that doesn't mean that Sin is more "energy starved" because of slower CDs ...

It has nothing to do with cooldowns, i'm talking about actions per minute, IE: how fast the spec plays, assassination is one of the slowest specs in the game. Sub isn't the fastest, but it's not near as slow as ass.

It can be sped up however, spreading bleeds can increase apm.

Its also my opinion that its unfun, some people enjoy it. I loved WoD assassination, dispatch made the spec fast af at execute.

[Ilir]

I'm only level 103, I don't usually play melee classes.

I enjoy sub a lot. I just find it kinda dumb that our out of stealth builder require us to be behind our target to deal the most damage... which is impossible (outside of stun) in solo content (not that it matters that much but still). Symbol of death is a weird spell... I don't really understand the way it is designed also the animation of the spell is so bad... it has nothing to do with the name of the spell.

Outlaw... the spec would have been great if it was not for this aweful roll the dice gameplay.

Didn't try assassination.

[Beingbob]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I think I'll get my rogue to 110 before making a decision. Better than spending a lot of time and then ending up unhappy, as I've done before.

[Jaronicity]

I'm only level 103, I don't usually play melee classes.

I enjoy sub a lot. I just find it kinda dumb that our out of stealth builder require us to be behind our target to deal the most damage... which is impossible (outside of stun) in solo content (not that it matters that much but still).

Probably what gloomblade is for. I know I used it when I was sub leveling through Legion (I also felt bad for the talent because I knew I'd never take it at 110 lol). Either you use your sdance charges or you just tank out of stealth and gb things. Then you don't have to worry about being behind mobs.

[shoegazing]

This garbage doesn't even deserve to be called a rogue anymore after the class butchery that Blizzard pulled. I miss Cata/MoP/WoD Sub every single day.

[elfporn]

This garbage doesn't even deserve to be called a rogue anymore after the class butchery that Blizzard pulled. I miss Cata/MoP/WoD Sub every single day.

We know bro. He's new though, so he doesn't have to work through the nostalgia and/or baggage from past experiences.

[shoegazing]

We know bro. He's new though, so he doesn't have to work through the nostalgia and/or baggage from past experiences.

You don't need 'baggage from past experience' to see that Legion Subtlety has been gutted of most of its utility, that there is really no depth at all left outside of the damage rotation, etc

The OP asked "is sub fun in Legion?" and the answer to that question is "not nearly as much fun as it was before Blizzard decided that it needed to be made 'more appealing to a wider audience'" (Celestalon's own words from the alpha forums)

They ruined all the things that made it fun and unique and turned it into just another damage bot for tunneling raid bosses

[elfporn]

You don't need 'baggage from past experience' to see that Legion Subtlety has been gutted of most of its utility, that there is really no depth at all left outside of the damage rotation, etc

The OP asked "is sub fun in Legion?" and the answer to that question is "not nearly as much fun as it was before Blizzard decided that it needed to be made 'more appealing to a wider audience'" (Celestalon's own words from the alpha forums)

They ruined all the things that made it fun and unique and turned it into just another damage bot for tunneling raid bosses

But you wouldnt feel this way if you had never played sub before.

I personally have more fun with sub than ever before, i never needed a bunch of fancy tools and extra buttons to have fun with the spec.

As far as being unique, it was indeed unique, it was so unique that the spec had barely been touched in 12 years. Other classes and specs got several overhauls while rogue never did, and legion was the expansion where they decided to shake things up.

They definitely did a half assed job, we agree there. But we've had this discussion before. Your opinion that sub is the worst its ever been is based on a hardcore pvp perspective tinged with disdain for anything related to pve. It makes you sound elitist, just as before.

[shoegazing]

But you wouldnt feel this way if you had never played sub before.

I personally have more fun with sub than ever before, i never needed a bunch of fancy tools and extra buttons to have fun with the spec.

As far as being unique, it was indeed unique, it was so unique that the spec had barely been touched in 12 years. Other classes and specs got several overhauls while rogue never did, and legion was the expansion where they decided to shake things up.

They definitely did a half assed job, we agree there. But we've had this discussion before. Your opinion that sub is the worst its ever been is based on a hardcore pvp perspective tinged with disdain for anything related to pve. It makes you sound elitist, just as before.

I do not have disdain for pve. I have loved raiding in the past.

I have disdain for class design which takes a spec that was incredibly unique and fun in non-raid content, with people who had gravitated towards that spec over the course of 12 years because that is the playstyle which we desired, and completely redesigned it to be more streamlined for raiding while killing all the things that made it uniquely awesome.

Subtlety was just flat out fun and awesome to play before, and it simply isn't anymore. Blizzard's new generation of class designers ruined the Mona Lisa of class design because they didn't appreciate the value of what they had inherited.

It's not just a PvP vs. PvE thing. Look for yourself:

[Tuskchi]

Can I say 2 words?

I've been a PvPer most of the time since I've been playing. Never played a rogue, because I leveled other characters back then ( lock, warrior, druid, hunter ... ). Since WotLK blizzard have been changing the game more and more ... mostly to a unappealing for me way, hence why I've been playing about 1 to 3 months post new expansion and stop.

I'm not going to discuss that wPvP is utterly gutted and destroyed since WotLK, just that, well ... Legion is the first exp since TBC that made me level 3 characters to max level and have fun with them. While I did some pvp with my Monk and my Wlock, I can't say that I really enjoyed it. So imagine my mindset going this week into the weekly quest with my rogue ... However, to my biggest surprised - the rogue I most sincerely enjoy ...

This is a fact.

I can't say if it's because it has solid dps combined with some solid survival effects ( no other class has a hard reset like CloS+Vanish) ... or is it just the stealth in general ... but I'm rly having fun and I can see myself pushing for 50 Prestige and the pvp skins for my weapon.

I'm not going to discuss, if I should be unhappy, because I haven't played 12 years of subt ... but I share my exp.

Btw Subt, to my surprise, deals crapton of damage in pvp ... I know Sin can nuke as well, but the mobility on the ambush+teleport feels much more solid. Also Evi is the most hard hitting finisher by far ...

The only thing is that, well I've played some rogue during the years, never active though, but it does feel like part of the kit is missing ...

[czimgreen]

It's not just a PvP vs. PvE thing. Look for yourself:

You realize your video says absolutely nothing to someone that didn't play rogue before right?

Personally, I love legion Sub. Leveling is boring (you end up using stealth+ 2 skills), but both pvp and pve at endgame are definitely funnier than ass and outlaw

[honung]

It's a decently fun spec but it's nothing compared to what it was before Legion.

[elfporn]

It's a decently fun spec but it's nothing compared to what it was before Legion.

I only ever had tremendous fun with sub when i had soulcap+ring available. Otherwise in WoD it was mediocre/struggling. In cata it was fun af, but again, the daggers and more complicated rotation played a huge factor.

I always see people saying sub was so good in WoD and all i can think of was the high note sub had in HFC with soulcap and the legendary ring. The spec was barely on par before that, and if i recall correctly, combat was ahead unless you could get a soulcap, once you had soulcap, the spec got super fun just because we could massively blow shit up. Strictly pve perspective***. I do realize sub pvp in WoD was pretty good due to the CC you could apply within SD.