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  1. #1

    Mantle of The master assassin and Simcraft

    Hi all,

    I kinda have a situation here. So i hope you all Theorycrafter/Feelcrafter will provide me with a good/honest answer (if such thing exist!).

    1/ I have :

    [Cloak of temporal Recalibration] 885ilvl ==> 1061 agi 1592 stam 288 haste 589 mastery
    [Trousers of Cultivation] 895ilvl ==> 2071 agi 3107 endu 706 haste 915 versa*

    Should I replace those two pieces with 2 pieces of my set to get the bonus? :

    [Doomblade Shadowwrap] 875ilvl ==> 967 agi 1450 endu 568 versa 278 mastery
    [Doomblade Pants] 875ilvl ==> 1719 agi 2578 endu 1042 crit 463 versa.

    Is the bonus worth replacing better ilvls gear?

    2/ I looted Mantle of the Master assassin. And yet Simcraft tells me Subterfuge would be a little less of a dps than nightstalker. Who should I believe? Should I go with Subterfuge or Nightstalker?

    3/IF subterfuge is the way to go, could you provide an adequate opener sequence as I imagine garrote should have a more important role?

    Those questions may already have been asked, but I am always finding contradictory answers.
    Last edited by Golgota; 2017-03-18 at 11:01 AM.

  2. #2
    I'm not running sims on you so this is just based on my own experience so far.

    1. Yes, the set bonus is worth the switch
    2. I'm the same in that simming shows a slight drop in dps if I switch to subterfuge (and I have a big Draught to go with my shoulders.) Also in game testing by me shows that subterfuge is an even larger drop again (simming showed a drop of about 2k dps but dummy testing gives me an average of about 35k dps less.)
    3. I've tried multiple variations of openings reported here and in discord but have yet to find anything that makes up for the loss of the vanish empowered rupture, so I can't advise you usefully other than to give dummy testing a try and see if you have better luck than me.

    I'm assuming this will all change once we get into T20 since more buffing of garrote will surely make subterfuge the best?

    ** Just did some sims on AMR (which I rarely look at) where it shows subterfuge ahead about 19k so maybe try that. Doing dummy testing with the opening they have on that sim and it's only just behind Nightstalker so probably worth some work.
    Last edited by Gilor; 2017-03-19 at 04:52 AM. Reason: new tests

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilor View Post
    I'm not running sims on you so this is just based on my own experience so far.

    1. Yes, the set bonus is worth the switch
    2. I'm the same in that simming shows a slight drop in dps if I switch to subterfuge (and I have a big Draught to go with my shoulders.) Also in game testing by me shows that subterfuge is an even larger drop again (simming showed a drop of about 2k dps but dummy testing gives me an average of about 35k dps less.)
    3. I've tried multiple variations of openings reported here and in discord but have yet to find anything that makes up for the loss of the vanish empowered rupture, so I can't advise you usefully other than to give dummy testing a try and see if you have better luck than me.

    I'm assuming this will all change once we get into T20 since more buffing of garrote will surely make subterfuge the best?

    ** Just did some sims on AMR (which I rarely look at) where it shows subterfuge ahead about 19k so maybe try that. Doing dummy testing with the opening they have on that sim and it's only just behind Nightstalker so probably worth some work.

    Subterfuge IS better then nigthstalker with leg shoulders (without, is just sightly worse).

    3 sec worth of 100% crit chance is better then 500k more damage of and empowered rupture vs empowered garrote.
    Nigthstaker itself is just a small dps gain over no t2 latents.

    That "36k" less dps is probably due rng.

  4. #4
    The 3 extra seconds of 100% crit with Subterfuge has been fixed on PTR so basically, we should change the rotation again back to NS. We may switch back to Subterfuge with T20.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkkz View Post
    The 3 extra seconds of 100% crit with Subterfuge has been fixed on PTR so basically, we should change the rotation again back to NS. We may switch back to Subterfuge with T20.
    so no change.

    edit: just double checked on live

    on opener, the 6sec buff begins counting down as soon as you attack, even if you have subterfuge.

    on vanish, 6sec buff begins after subterfuge/vanish ends, so 9sec instead of 6

    possible bug?

    Just double checked again - subterfuge has no impact on the length of buff at all. "Stealth" breaks when the vanish buff falls off and 6sec cd begins. Looking at the subterfuge tooltip, it doesnt maintain stealth for 3sec, it only allows the use of stealth related abilities for 3sec AFTER stealth breaks.

    So a well-used nightstalker may net more dmg with shoudlers? vanish->envenom->garrote perhaps?
    Last edited by elfporn; 2017-03-19 at 05:47 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Halobob87 View Post
    Subterfuge IS better then nigthstalker with leg shoulders (without, is just sightly worse).

    3 sec worth of 100% crit chance is better then 500k more damage of and empowered rupture vs empowered garrote.
    Nigthstaker itself is just a small dps gain over no t2 latents.

    That "36k" less dps is probably due rng.
    Possibly but as other commenters have said the "3 secs" extra crit doesn't seem to be reliably identifiable. I am willing to concede it may be due to rng or misplay though, on dummy testing I was able to get averages very close to nightstalker but when doing Krosus wipes last night subterfuge attempts were substantially below nightstalker ... could be just lack of practice with it on my part or rng but I'm very dubious about the AMR sims.

  7. #7
    Well, the extra 3 seconds are given by the vanish's improved stealth thingy if I recall. Anyway, it has been fixed on ptr. Only 6 seconds from now on.

  8. #8
    Hi guys,
    There is a custom apl using shoulders for simcraft available on the rogue discord ravenholdt. Its pinned in the simulation section. Very useful!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilor View Post
    I'm assuming this will all change once we get into T20 since more buffing of garrote will surely make subterfuge the best?.
    If 2/4 T19 + 4/4 T20 is the way to go next raid, it means people won't be able to use the shoulders. I wanted the bracers, I feel it's better for progression anyway. The shoulders are just something you use to farm logs on WL.

  10. #10
    I managed to copy paste the new APL on SIMc... and Subterfuge seems to be ahead.. But i have a hard time understanding how to read the APL.. I still don't know what opener it is and how it is played to have such DPS (594k in my case)

  11. #11
    if you want something explained from the apl post it or pm me

    the opener used by simcraft you can find in simc results->Action Priority List->Sample Sequence Table
    but that's not the opener you should use...advices for that can be found here: http://w w w.mmo-champion.com/threads/2167255-Best-opener-with-Mantle-of-the-Master-Assassin-Draught-of-Souls-as-Assassination

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkkz View Post
    Well, the extra 3 seconds are given by the vanish's improved stealth thingy if I recall. Anyway, it has been fixed on ptr. Only 6 seconds from now on.
    Ohh damn it...
    I was so excited to get that shoulders and now they nerfed them :P

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Enterich View Post
    Ohh damn it...
    I was so excited to get that shoulders and now they nerfed them :P
    Or its a bug on ptr?

  14. #14
    Not sure, Tested some on PTR, seems like I stil get dubble crit o muticlate after the buff weared of. Might be vanish still give 9 sec but not show?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    Or its a bug on ptr?
    highly unlikely. You only get 9 seconds because improved vanish buff, even tho you are out of stealth (which is why non vanish openers are still 6 seconds on live even with subterfuge). They are fixing the bug so that you only get 6 seconds no matter what when you leave stealth.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabatakis View Post
    highly unlikely. You only get 9 seconds because improved vanish buff, even tho you are out of stealth (which is why non vanish openers are still 6 seconds on live even with subterfuge). They are fixing the bug so that you only get 6 seconds no matter what when you leave stealth.
    according to the tooltip stealth is not broken for 3sec after entering combat/attacking/taking damage - it's working as intended on live, so it should be a bug on the ptr.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    according to the tooltip stealth is not broken for 3sec after entering combat/attacking/taking damage - it's working as intended on live, so it should be a bug on the ptr.
    Mine says your abilities requiring stealth can be used for 3 seconds after stealth breaks, not that you remain in stealth for 3 seconds. Huge difference in this case. I don't work for blizz so I won't boldly say what is or is not working as intended, but my reading skills suggest to me its bugged live and fixed on PTR.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabatakis View Post
    Mine says your abilities requiring stealth can be used for 3 seconds after stealth breaks, not that you remain in stealth for 3 seconds. Huge difference in this case. I don't work for blizz so I won't boldly say what is or is not working as intended, but my reading skills suggest to me its bugged live and fixed on PTR.
    that's subterfuge

  19. #19
    Vanish is the reason for 9 seconds crit, not Subterfuge.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    that's subterfuge
    Oh you were talking about vanish then? because it says damage and harmful effects received will not break it for 3 seconds. Nothing about not breaking when you open, so I really am lost as to what tooltip you are talking about.

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