Are guilds all over collapsing or am I just seeing a lot of bad luck?

[Deleted]

Sorry, but this just reaks irony...
for one Conflux was who 1st stated that they lost the discussion.

I didn't lose. When you are in a room full of retards and they throw their feces at the wall and ceiling it is best to leave that room instead of throwing shit yourself.
They may have the illusion that they "won" and I gave them that on purpose so that they leave me alone with their flawed logic.

[Tharkkun]

Since Blizzard releases only BS numbers like "total hours played", I could also be right. It's pretty clear that Blizzard has WOW on maintenance mode at this point.

The collapse of long time guilds left and right isn't normal... this xpac is designed to burn the playerbase out faster than ever. Blizzard is learning the hard way that "total hours played" is only a good metric when those hours are fun and engaging, neither of which is true about what is required to keep a character raiding relevant.

It's been happening since the first month of WoW. Guilds come and go. People come and go. You can't have over 100,000 people cycle through a game during a 10 year period with no social effect on the players. Is WoW losing subscribers? Of course. The new/returning players no longer outweighs the ones who stop playing which is *normal* for a 13 year old game. There isn't a single game in existence that has maintained 5-10 million players over this period of time.

[IceMan1763]

It's been happening since the first month of WoW. Guilds come and go. People come and go. You can't have over 100,000 people cycle through a game during a 10 year period with no social effect on the players. Is WoW losing subscribers? Of course. The new/returning players no longer outweighs the ones who stop playing which is *normal* for a 13 year old game. There isn't a single game in existence that has maintained 5-10 million players over this period of time.

More recent xpacs like MOP had far better retention than the last two, and MOP wasn't that long ago.

[Spike`]

right now many just dont care and are just waiting for the next patch or quit the game for good/next expansion

my guild is a normal/hc one and at max the first mythic ones because is more chilled players that really dont care about mythic

the result is simple, from 30 players we had now we have 11 players at max for raid even on reset day and many guilds are having the same problem even without the AP burnout

the top guild on my server with 9/10 from EN to NH only the officers/GM and 2 healers are the same, all other players are new players from other guilds, the others simply left for a more relaxed guilds or quit the game. That ones was totally AP and m+ farm burnout

but remember, many more guilds are normal/heroic now than before, the people are older and the game dont have almost no one new entering, so more and more players are content with normal/heroic and after they killed the last boss and having their tier set they quit logging in until the next raid

[Richardbro]

Blizzard fucked up mythic nighthold from a gear design perspective and tuning. Not worth doing 300 wipes on Star Auger mythic for gear I can get titanforged on heroic for 10% of the effort.

I took a break from raiding and will decide to raid in ToS mythic. Will definitely do the other difficulties but mythic is not worth the time and effort these days for awful rewards, rather play other games.

[Tharkkun]

More recent xpacs like MOP had far better retention than the last two, and MOP wasn't that long ago.

Since you don't have subscriber numbers you're just spitting in the wind with that statement. However wasn't it Tom Chilton who stated off the record that Legion has as good of numbers as WOD? WOD peaked above MOP.

[Thetruth1400]

It's not just you, the outside of raid time grind required to keep a character raid ready, especially at the mythic level, is far beyond anything this game has seen going back to at least Wrath. This is burning out players (and thus guilds) on the game at an exponential pace that hasn't been seen before.

They are probably at an all time low for subs right now or close, and will continue to fall. At this rate, they will probably only release TOS and then possibly a very half hearted last raid a long ways down the road. If they make another xpac, it will likely be the last for WOW.

People have been saying the lull at the end of WotLK. While I agree that their subs probably aren't near where they used to be, there's no real way to tell how bad they are. Frankly, Legion has more content then WoD did, so I'd venture to say their subs are still above where WoD was.

It doesn't really that all that much to get raid ready for the week unless you're talking cutting edge Mythics, which very few people do. Players overall are just burnt out on this game because it's the same game that's over 10 years old now. WoW has had very little innovation throughout the years, and they've changed directions with how they create content for people to play. Instead of focusing on always having something to strive for, you're either on current content or you will be shortly because of the overabundance of catch up mechanics.


All that aside, yes, guilds are collapsing from what I've been seeing too OP. I played for a month at launch, was in a guild, we finished Heroics, and the guild fell apart. I left for a few months, came back for Nighthold, joined one guild, was working on Heroics, and it fell apart. It merged with another guild, finished heroics and started mythics, again, fell apart. The model of the game has changed to the point where people just don't care anymore. Blame Blizzard, blame the players, blame anything and everything, they're all contributors to why it just doesn't seem like things can hold together for the long run.

[IceMan1763]

Since you don't have subscriber numbers you're just spitting in the wind with that statement. However wasn't it Tom Chilton who stated off the record that Legion has as good of numbers as WOD? WOD peaked above MOP.

Player retention is the issue... and despite what people say, retention does matter. What does it take 3-4 months of sub fee to equal the cost of the xpac? Also people who don't stay subbed aren't buying pets or server transfers. Player retention will be awful this xpac because they added cheap systems to force grind rather than concentrate on making compelling, abundant, and accessible content like they did in Wrath and MOP, arguably their most successful xpacs.

And when I say accessible, I mean that you don't need to jump through a billion hoops to be relevant for mythic raiding. WOD had accessibility, but very poorly received and limited content outside of raiding. MOP was successful in satisfying raiders, PVPers, and people who were more interested in other content.

[Deleted]

It's not just you, the outside of raid time grind required to keep a character raid ready, especially at the mythic level, is far beyond anything this game has seen going back to at least Wrath. This is burning out players (and thus guilds) on the game at an exponential pace that hasn't been seen before.
They are probably at an all time low for subs right now or close, and will continue to fall. At this rate, they will probably only release TOS and then possibly a very half hearted last raid a long ways down the road. If they make another xpac, it will likely be the last for WOW.

THIS ladies and gents is a prime example of player that takes himself TOO serious because he killed ~4 (current) mythic bosses and think now hes a REAL mythic raider.
Plus he is so delusional to think that mythic raiders OUTNUMBER the number of players that keep the game alive = roflmao
Legion is the best xpac to date (since vanilla) to keep the game alive for a LONG time.

[IceMan1763]

Legion is the best xpac to date (since vanilla) to keep the game alive for a LONG time.

This is how we know you are delusional.

[Deleted]

The collapse of long time guilds left and right isn't normal...

Guilds dying all the time IS normal,
cause everyday some nub thinks he can make a "better" guild....

this xpac is designed to burn the playerbase out faster than ever.

no its to have them longer engaged like vanilla did.

Blizzard is learning the hard way that "total hours played" is only a good metric when those hours are fun and engaging

Just because something AINT fun for YOU it doesnt mean its a fail, it just means YOU DONT like it.

[Ravingmad]

I've been Guild Master for 5 years, Raid Leader for 6 years and I've seen it all. The cycle repeats itself on every expansion. People are hyped at first, raiding goes well and you usually have too much people at first. Then you need to be selective for MM, or just can't take "noobs" because you're progressing in the Raid dificulties and you need your best effectives, people rant and stop raiding. Then you get stuck in progression, and people start not showing up by lack of interest (I've already completed the raid in Normal mode, so Im done with the story! And that new game is out!), frustration ("You don't pick me up for raids! Oh what?... what is a Raid Calendar? I didn't know"), or they are looking somewhere else that goes faster ("You guys are not power-leveling me anymore, so Im out.")

Usually, once the general content is completed, unless you reroll or need to have those 10k Expedition Achievement, or etc, people loose interest. The game is done! What else is there to do but to only repeat what you've done in the last 3-4 months? People wants everything fast, but without working hard for it. Or the opposite, hard working players get disappointed by the lack of progression in the guild and leave. The worst is usually fights between guildmates, or arguments during raiding on TeamSpeak, etc, it breaks people morale. The problem is usually that people are either lazy, selfish and/or won't take responsibilities or try to play more seriously.

Mythic raiding, for example, needs dedication. It will take time, its gonna be painful, you'll need a lot of chillpills and a lot more. Not everybody signed up for this, or just can't meet these requirements because of IRL.

I need to relink the latest Dark Legacy comic, because its so f-word true, it brings back memories (but is still very actual) and makes Illidian's famous quote ever so true: "You are not prepared!".

[Spike`]

y there is every type on a guild

1. only cares for story and normal mode and stops logging
2. wants some challenge, it will play heroic and stops logging
3. will only stop after getting its 4 tier sets, doesn't matter if its normal or heroic
4. will only stay for set 2/4pc on heroic and trinkets and reaching some ilvl to be ready for next raid on normal and stops logging
etc etc
then comes the ones that always are there to get the best gear possible for next raid (warforged, titan)

one of the tricks is to only give gear to them the least possible to delay the inevitable and the gear going to proper players and what they rage? they quit anyway and at least no gear is lost

[Dormie]

It's called confirmation bias. Just another doomsday thread.

[therealbowser]

Lots of guilds fall apart and are remade with the fractured sets of members. This happens all the time, even with the largest and most successful raiding guilds in the world.

It does sound like the OP has had bad luck, but this stuff does happen. It's nothing to fret about though; just keep trying new guilds until one sticks, and if you find one you like, stick with it as long as it remains the guild you want to be in.

The number one thing I've seen kill long term guilds (non-hardcore raiding, at least) is leadership. Either the leader will get tired of leading -- often from lack of support of fellow officers, but frequently enough from just general burn out, too -- or the leadership will get pressured to do bad things from people they care about, you know... girl/boyfriends, significant others... etc. Members aren't happy with the change and quit in droves. Every good guild I've ever been a part of eventually disbanded to stuff like this.

Either way, WoW isn't dying, it's just a matter of life in gaming. Guilds die, and new ones are formed. Nothing unusual about this.

[Reveries1]

Not enough people making friends with their guild mates and joining guilds for, in my opinion, the wrong reason. Gamers need to stop seeing their guilds as a tool to get loot or clear content. If they focus more on having fun with friends the gear/content comes naturally as a by product. Casual not in dedication or play time but in focus.

[Tharkkun]

Player retention is the issue... and despite what people say, retention does matter. What does it take 3-4 months of sub fee to equal the cost of the xpac? Also people who don't stay subbed aren't buying pets or server transfers. Player retention will be awful this xpac because they added cheap systems to force grind rather than concentrate on making compelling, abundant, and accessible content like they did in Wrath and MOP, arguably their most successful xpacs.

Let's just say subs are down to 5 million. That's approximately 900 million in subscription revenue a year. Expansions don't cost more than a couple hundred million to produce. If they sell 5 million copies over it's lifetime they've recouped the entire cost of development. So it's pure profit. Micro transactions are just the icing on the cash cow of a cake they already have.

And when I say accessible, I mean that you don't need to jump through a billion hoops to be relevant for mythic raiding. WOD had accessibility, but very poorly received and limited content outside of raiding. MOP was successful in satisfying raiders, PVPers, and people who were more interested in other content.

WoW could survive on 1 million subscribers and easily continue making enough cash to comfortably produce expansions. Most MMO's never had more than a million after the first year. EQ peaked at 500k and it has 20 expansions now. Other MMO's are also producing content with sub 1 million users in a F2P market.

98% of the players doesn't participate in Mythic raiding. So guess what? The core player base doesn't give a damn. They are happy with tons of content to participate in. Hell even PVP is more fun now that things are templated and you don't get stomped.

Player retention after 13 years is unheard of. Every month that goes by they are breaking new ground because *NO* product has maintained a subscriber base this large for this period of time. Truth? The game should've died 8 years ago but it's an anomaly. Saying what should be important doesn't make sense because we're long past that point in time. Either embrace the game or don't play. No one is going to quit a game they are happy playing because someone named Iceman said they should on a forum.

[Killface1]

Blizzard decided mythic raiding should have higher barriers, and rather than gating them behind skill they gated them behind grinding. It burned a bunch of players out, its in the process of burning out the rest, and soon it'll be a thing of the past. People who want to play challenging games play other games anyway, and as an esport they get a lot more attention from hearthstone and overwatch. Seems like a pretty conscious decision, its a bummer because mythic raiding is pretty fun, but they seem to have collectively decided that the amount of attention and effort it takes to address people upset about 1% difference in class balances and finetuning issues isn't worth it, and if they can design a fun raid that people can blow through in a week they're good with that.

I find emmissary quests to be boring, mythic + is losing its interest since it caps gear and achievement rewards at 15 and the challenging stuff is around 24-25+ at this point, and nobody wants to do hard content if there isn't rewards, and the struggle of finding people for mythic with how many people are bailing on the game right now is pretty meh. Long as I can pay for the game with gold i'll be around, since its like an hour of gameplay a month to make enough gold to buy a token, but if that changes (tokens hit 200-300k, they get rid of them, or people stop buying runs, whichever comes first) I'll unsub and not look back.

I miss mop a lot. Hitting 90 and being able to raid heroic a month later with a new spec/class was a lot of fun. Raid quality was pretty good. Pretty much the only complaint I have with it is that SoO lasted 14 months. You give me mop gameplay and class mechanics, mop legendaries, and the release of content at the rate of legion and I'd be one happy camper. Oh well, to each their own, its blizzards baby and its theirs to try and run as a business.

[Osmeric]

Blizzard had a problem. Players were quitting too quickly.

"I know what I'll do!" said Blizzard. "I'll make the raids more difficult."

Now Blizzard had two problems.

[Deleted]

Guilds are generally as solid as their leadership. If the officers and gm aren't interested in sinking almost all their free time into it they'll fall appart eventually. I've personally spent an unreasonable amount of time in building and maintaining my guild for 10 years now. But in Legion even I find myself burning myself out, not because I had to farm legendaries or 54 traits, I would've done that anyway, but more because I don't feel like investing 10 hours a day into recruiting just to end up stressing that person out by pushing them to keep up with traits and leggos and everything else.

But the problem there lies in the content being tuned to 54 traits so I can't just let it slide if they want to raid under our banner.

Hopefully 7.2 will lower the demand for AP farming what goes for raid tuning. I feel it would be more appealing for people to keep playing if that was the case.